Your next 2020 Democratic presidential primary thread: Now we're serious

here, let me put my broken record back on - YOU CAN'T PASS M4A THAT WAY

Your broken record is actually YOU CAN'T PASS M4A AT ALL. So Biden, Sanders, Warren, in your book it doesn't matter - because Manchin controls the keys to the castle.

Whatever passes through Diamond Joe backslapping Manchin and other the other grandees of our worst constitutional institution probably wouldn’t be M4A

it's a good angle, but yeah who knows

the after-effects of Trump derangement syndrome are hard to predict

xp

milo how do you envision Bernie passing M4A

Your broken record is actually YOU CAN'T PASS M4A AT ALL.

again, this is a deliberate misreading of what I said upthread. I specifically noted that maybe Warren could accomplish it, because she hasn't already made an enemy out of Manchin.

Pareene:

Elizabeth Warren is the candidate whose foreign policy language most superficially resembles Sanders’s: She, too, promises to do good, or at least fewer evil, things with American power. But on this subject, even more than on others, personnel is policy: Her team is made up of the sort of people who have been in charge and would be in charge in any other conventional Democratic administration. CNN’s recent look at her foreign policy beliefs described her campaign as attracting “a number of career diplomats who say Washington, as one adviser described it, is in urgent need of a ‘substantial rethink’ of how it conducts foreign policy.” But the people assigned to do the rethink are largely the ones who did the first think. Nearly every participant at that CAP event could slide seamlessly into a Warren administration.

Her top foreign policy aide, Sasha Baker, is a “former deputy chief of staff to ex-Secretary of Defense Ash Carter.” Another adviser is Ilan Goldenberg, “former chief of staff to the Special Envoy for Israeli-Palestinian Negotiations in the Obama State Department.” And Jarrett Blanc, “former coordinator for the Iran nuclear implementation at the State Department and acting special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan under President Barack Obama.”

https://newrepublic.com/article/156374/democratic-hawks-declare-war-bernie-sanders

ie, fear of Obamaism in a Warren admin appears justified

Good afternoon!

xxxp - Don't know! Never said I did.

What I do know is that "he can't get it passed because he won't tongue Joe Manchin's butthole" is bullshit, either you can force Manchin on board or you can't. Might as well give it the old college try.

I also know that if we don't try to pass good things, regardless of Joe Manchin's satisfaction, we're doomed - and Sanders (and Warren) propose those good things, which is more than can be said of any Democratic contenders in my lifetime. So fuck it, let's be legends. Let's try to pass some watered down social democracy and if it fails because of Democrats then bring on the Giant Meteor 2024 because our future is going to be worse than fiery annihilation.

Don't know! Never said I did.

the defense rests

cool deathcult you have there tho

the defense rests

Haha, yes, as opposed to your cunning plan to get it through by, uh, being nice to him. Worked for Obama with Joe Lieberman and the public option!
Here's the reality - none of us know shit about how you get society-changing progressive legislation through because most of us weren't alive the last time it happened.

cool deathcult you have there tho

dude, calm down

your arguments, such as they are, are ahistorical. When it comes to holding your caucus together and making deals, it absolutely pays to sweet-talk your target, per LBJ: you catch more flies with honey, keep 'em in the tent pissing out rather than on the outside pissing in, etc. Obama never insisted on the public option and didn't have any leverage over Lieberman, he bungled that badly. I would consider Obamacare (and to a lesser extent the ARRA) as serious progressive legislation, but even if I hadn't lived through them the voluminous historical research available to the mildly curious provides lots of insight on how society-changing legislation has been passed, and it has always involved compromising with unsavory characters, the vast majority of them much much more unsavory than Joe Manchin. This was the case with the New Deal, with the Voting Rights Act, with the Civil Rights Act etc. This stuff is not a mystery.

thank this racist shitbag for the New Deal, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_G._Bilbo

In other news, DNC tweaks debate rules for Feb. debate, giving Bloomberg a possible opening.

been mentioned a few times.

I don't care, frankly (Yang and Gabbard are awful) and Bloomberg hasn't got a prayer.

it absolutely pays to sweet-talk your target, per LBJ

Your go-to example for this is the guy who would physically intimidate people with his giant penis and monstrous shits?

society-changing legislation has[...]always involved compromising with unsavory characters, the vast majority of them much much more unsavory than Joe Manchin. This was the case with the New Deal, with the Voting Rights Act, with the Civil Rights Act etc. This stuff is not a mystery.

― Οὖτις, Friday, January 31, 2020 4:00 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

these bills also require a groundswell of grassroots support and mobilization which is a point in bernard's favor

LBJ probably the greatest leader of the Senate in the 20th century so yeah

these bills also require a groundswell of grassroots support and mobilization which is a point in bernard's favor

very true

xps

The Voting Rights Act wasn't passed by compromising with Robert Byrd. White supremacy and the New Deal is a case study for why you don't let the shitbags dictate terms - and if you do anyway, when you stop doing stop letting them the deals fall apart.

LBJ probably the greatest leader of the Senate in the 20th century so yeah

stop doing

White supremacy and the New Deal is a case study for why you don't let the shitbags dictate terms

so you would have preferred no New Deal? huh.

Agreed Bloomie doesn’t have a prayer. However he could draw enough votes to alter contours of the primary.

The point is that none of the contenders have a clearer path to getting progressive legislation through Manchin than any of the others, Sanders not kissing his ass is irrelevant and a dumb objection to raise about him.

We don't know what the legislative process will look like - we've seen it with the eager to compromise and the technocrats, we haven't seen it with someone banking on that grassroots support.

so you would have preferred no New Deal? huh.

If we're going to play this game, "so you're cool with the white supremacy of the New Deal? huh."

The Voting Rights Act wasn't passed by compromising with Robert Byrd.

do you want me to run down the shitty Republicans that voted for it and gave LBJ the filibuster-proof majority?

xp

The point is that none of the contenders have a clearer path to getting progressive legislation through Manchin than any of the others, Sanders not kissing his ass is irrelevant and a dumb objection to raise about him.

hard disagree - as I've pointed out repeatedly, Warren has not gotten into public fights with Joe Manchin and explicitly made an enemy out of him. Manchin hasn't said "I will back Trump over Warren" to a reporter.

If we're going to play this game, "so you're cool with the white supremacy of the New Deal? huh."

I am cool with the New Deal, yes. The white supremacy parts of it sucked shit, but it was better than the alternative of nothing.

Dixiecrat Shakey, makes the Manchin stuff more understandable now.

Warren has not gotten into public fights with Joe Manchin and explicitly made an enemy out of him

You've also said that "bribery" would be required for him to vote for M4A at all, which has nothing to do with fights or friendliness. If he can be bought, he can be bought.

you think Sanders is into buying people off? ok

Ugh, of course this year's DNC is in Milwaukee. I bet the local cops are champing at the bit to produce a rerun of 1968. If the DNC thought it would help them in WI to hold the convention there, they should have gone for Madison.

I have the distinct impression Warren is a little chummier/more collegial in the Senate just by nature of her personality and by her not picking fights with other Senators the way Sanders has. I would be open to evidence to the contrary.

xps

Dixiecrat Shakey, makes the Manchin stuff more understandable now.

I'm not calling you any names, you know. If you wanna know what puts some people off about Berniebros on the internet, here's a case study.

you think Sanders is into buying people off? ok

little chummier/more collegial in the Senate

I'm not calling you any names

I think Warren shows more flexibility/less ideological purity than Sanders so yes.

Your prime example is, again, the guy whose calling card was abuse.

don't think this is an accurate depiction of how LBJ maneuvered votes tbh.

and certainly there's no other majority leader/President that manipulated the Senate so thoroughly.

"deathcult" was in response to a post where you literally wished mass death and destruction in lieu of political failure.

purity! time to start happy hour

cheers!

"He's not beloved by 99 of the worst people in the country" is sub-MSNBC analysis - and a strong argument for his election regardless.

I think Warren shows more flexibility/less ideological purity than Sanders so yes.

So you're basically invalidating the vast majority of the arguments about why Warren should be acceptable to progressives. (There's also no sign that it's true.)

I am unaware of and don't really care about those arguments

wait lbj abused people with the smell of his dumps

i was gonna say y'all should stop but i'm learning a lot here

sorry i meant fdr i am very tired

wait no i meant lbj

ignore me

Sanders bipartisan record in the Senate is mostly on the foreign policy side. Warren's is more on the domestic side (and there seems to be a bit more of it, although a breakdown of bills would take some time to analyze)

xps

lbj had meetings in the shitter, pissed out on the wh lawn so people could see his ding dong, backed ppl into corners and shoved his finger their chest as he towered over them, he was a country ass thug

xp

brad your run there is the best stretch this thread has had all afternoon

i'm staying late at work today and i'd rather not do the work i'm staying late for