A New Thread fot the Current Israel/Palestine/Lebanon mess

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Charles Krauthammer, appalled that world governments "have completely lost [their] moral bearings," says Israel's response has been far from disproportionate – it could have leveled Beirut if it so chose, and hasn't yet.

ttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701725.html

James Wolcott and Hitchens have decried the neoconservative tendency to unload WWII analogies for any occasion; Krauthammer's latest may be the most ludicrous. Hezbollah is not Japan! (and, for that matter, neither is Beirut).

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 28 July 2006 11:58 (nineteen years ago)

It's a good year for warmongering cunts everywhere, it seems.

Dave B (daveb), Friday, 28 July 2006 12:46 (nineteen years ago)

I actually know Charles Kr8uth8mmer. He's a nice guy but his politics are teh douche.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Friday, 28 July 2006 13:00 (nineteen years ago)

meanwhile, rave reviews

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20060728/2006_07_28t035019_450x344_us_asean.jpg?x=380&y=290&sig=if_GZPWCGVpNwi6aJ1MXVQ--

In keeping with her “serious� mood the Secretary of State performed two pieces from the brooding repertoire of Johannes Brahms – a solo Intermezzo number two, and Brahms Sonata for violin and piano, opus 108, with a Malaysian guest soloist.

kingfish cyclopean ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 28 July 2006 16:58 (nineteen years ago)

You're all targets, Israel tells Lebanese in South
By Harry de Quetteville in Jerusalem


(Filed: 28/07/2006)

Everyone remaining in southern Lebanon will be regarded as a terrorist, Israel's justice minister said yesterday as the military prepared to employ "huge firepower" from the air in its campaign to crush Hizbollah.

Haim Ramon issued the warning as the Israeli government decided against expanding ground operations after the death of nine soldiers in fighting on Wednesday.


Ehud Olmert surrounded by bodyguards in northern Israel


"What we should do in southern Lebanon is employ huge firepower before a ground force goes in," Mr Ramon said at a security cabinet meeting headed by Ehud Olmert, the prime minister. "Everyone in southern Lebanon is a terrorist and is connected to Hizbollah. Our great advantage vis-a-vis Hizbollah is our firepower, not in face-to-face combat."

Mr Olmert promised that the army would "continue toward the established goals".

Mr Ramon's comments suggested that civilian casualties in Lebanon, which stand at about 600 after 16 days of bombardment, could rise yet higher.

The government's unrelenting line has the backing of the Israeli media, which are demanding a harsh response to an ambush in the Hizbollah stronghold of Bint Jbeil, in which eight soldiers died.

The country's biggest-selling paper, Yedioth Ahronoth, said the army had raised the threshold of response to Katyusha rockets.

"In other words: a village from which rockets are fired at Israel will simply be destroyed by fire," it said.

"This decision should have been made and executed after the first Katyusha. But better late than never."

Three divisions of reserve soldiers, up to 15,000 men, are to be called up.

Almost 50 Hizbollah missiles landed in northern Israel yesterday, wounding four people and bringing the total number of rockets fired into the country to about 1,400.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 July 2006 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

"In keeping with her "serious" mood the Secretary of State performed two pieces from the brooding repertoire of Johannes Brahms – a solo Intermezzo number two, and Brahms Sonata for violin and piano, opus 108, with a Malaysian guest soloist."

No "Bombs Over Baghdad"?!? what a ripoff.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

Olmert seems like a monster.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:04 (nineteen years ago)

the emphasis on the potential for Israeli disinformation here is... kinda scary.

CNN's day with Hezbollah:

http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/07/our-very-strange-day-with-hezbollah.html

My favourite bit is the part where they were taken to talk to the ambulance drivers and rescue workers but QUELLE COINCIDENCE they had to quickly drive away to attend to "injured civilians". The whole thing was later revealed to be staged, of course.

Iran is now claiming that we've all got it wrong and that they do not, in fact, send arms to Hezbollah.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:06 (nineteen years ago)

holy shit, stence.

this goes back to that op-ed I posted, wherein all civilians "in the way" may be deemed terrorists for not leaving.

gbx (skowly), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

I thought that was their claim all along - they only lend "moral and political support".

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

http://uruknet.info/uruknet-images/090205-bush-guitar.jpg

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:08 (nineteen years ago)

Kevin Nealon's sunk pretty low if all he can get is a gig as Dubya's guitar tech.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

I forgot to respond/comment here:

'm no fan of syria or iran, either. but even secular, moderate lebanese are probably now saying "better syria mess with us than israel."

I don't doubt this, but perception and reality might be very different here ... Israel's invasion of Lebanon was a big disaster but they still killed "only" a fraction of the number that the Syrians did during the Lebanese civil war. And it's safe to assume that under post-1990 Syrian domination, there were plenty of Lebanese arrested, tortured, and killed each year by the Syrian military.

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

"The Japanese meanwhile put on a sci-fi act that styled Foreign Minister Taro Aso as a Bogart-style time-traveller who saves the world from disaster and heralds a new era of regional cooperation."

i'd pay to see that.

Fetchboy (Felcher), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:18 (nineteen years ago)

that sounds so much more entertaining!

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

barry i read your link, but how do you know the ambulances leaving was a staged thing? how did the reporter? i thought the tone of that piece was really pissy. despite being unable to confirm anything they saw they ascribed motives and intentions to everyone they met anyway. that's what often happens when your interviewee is late, though. it always gets things off on the wrong foot.

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:19 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, you say "it was revealed" that it was staged, but it wasn't revealed at all. a minor point, maybe, and i don't doubt hezbollah is up to their necks in as much propaganda as they can foist on people, but you need to be fair. even if our CNN reporters aren't going to be.

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

hahah i mean, they were supposed to meet people who are in the MIDDLE of fighting ISRAEL at 11pm and his diary reads: "11:05 a.m.: Hezbollah is late for our meeting."

reading it again, actually, it's pretty clear to me that they thought they had an exclusive, and suddenly they see all these OTHER reporters behind them.. dicks!!!!

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:33 (nineteen years ago)

barry i read your link, but how do you know the ambulances leaving was a staged thing?

If you google this phrase, "these ambulances aren’t responding to any new bombings", you'll find that a bunch of rightwing fuckos have written about this at length. Cooper reflected on his day with Hezbollah in a follow-up segment on air. I didn't see the segment and I normally don't pay much attention to media watchdog blogs, but the quotes are extensive (and the airing of the segment should be easily verifiable) so I'm inclined to believe this.

Or, in brief: come on, do you *really* think that a group like Hezbollah doesn't stage shit for American media outlets? Does anything you know about Hezbollah suggest that they drive around like Batman, always on call, ready to protect the injured and heal the sick?

Sure, they were probably pissed about the non-exclusive, but it's not hard to tell you're being manipulated when pictures, names, and places you're allowed to visit are all being tightly controlled by the people who are supposed to be, you know, telling you stuff and answering your questions (which is not to say that conventional governments don't do this stuff sometimes).

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:45 (nineteen years ago)

My favourite bit is the part where they were taken to talk to the ambulance drivers and rescue workers but QUELLE COINCIDENCE they had to quickly drive away to attend to "injured civilians". The whole thing was later revealed to be staged, of course.

because of course no other governments, certainly not the us or canada or israel, ever stage anything.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:47 (nineteen years ago)

helluva x-post.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:49 (nineteen years ago)

I just said that, so I assume that's an xpost.

hahaha

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:50 (nineteen years ago)

that's fine for you and me, barry, to draw assumptions about what we think people probably do, and then just state it as fact. for reporters to do it is a betrayal of their profession and of our trust. if the rumor is that hezbollah now sends no ambulances to help the victims of israeli bombs, well - damn, that's a story! why not do a story on that? instead of sniggering on the sidelines, and speculating about shit that you just don't know? (again, it's fine for us to do that - it's what the internet is for! well that and porn. but this is actually the opposite of what reporters are supposed too do.)

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 28 July 2006 17:57 (nineteen years ago)

why not do a story on that?

According to the stuff I read, Cooper did do a story on exactly that*. If you're asking "why don't they do stories about this stuff more often", then it's probably because journalists don't like to advertise the fact that they were manipulated and may have reported bullshit disguised as facts.

*from this, I'm figuring that they did some fact-checking before airing the follow-up, because it makes you look 10X stupider if you air false news, and then follow it up by "exposing" that false news with unverifiable speculation. Although who's gonna take the time to investigate *that* in detail and call CNN on their bullshit *twice*? (as you noted, that's what the internet is for)

NoTimeBeforeTime (Barry Bruner), Friday, 28 July 2006 18:05 (nineteen years ago)

other theories about why the ambulances sped away:

1) they left some mortars in them and realized at the last second. woops!
2) they were driving AWAY from injured people, because they are MEAN and HATE FREEDOM.
3) quittin' time

xpost oh alright. so what did the story say? if hezbollah has ambulances and even semi-skilled people inside them, why are they stopping their runs?

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 28 July 2006 18:08 (nineteen years ago)

I'm figuring that they did some fact-checking before airing the follow-up...

that's a pretty big assumption given it's cnn. or of any news organization in general. of course fact-checking should happen, but doesn't always, when you've got deadlines. and cnn has made shit up before.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 28 July 2006 18:19 (nineteen years ago)

ok never mind, i found it. he says:

Then one by one, they've been told to turn on their sirens and zoom off so that all the photographers here can get shots of ambulances rushing off to treat civilians. That's the story that Hezbollah wants people to know about.

These ambulances aren't responding to any new bombings. The sirens are strictly for effect.

let's assume that he knows this to be true. that anderson cooper, his cameraman and his producer have figured out something that all the other newsguys at this exact same location, filming the same stuff, didn't "figure out." now. i don't know if you've ever seen a television news crew operate, but this happens ALL THE TIME with TOTALLY INNOCUOUS STORIES. i'll tell you why. it feels very fake the first few times you see it in action. let's say you're interviewing the director of a children's health charity. you set up a camera outside the building. you shoot her walking through the front door several times. she comes back out each time and walks through again. then you shoot her chatting with the receptionist. "talk about pencils or something," you say. then, in her office, you get a wide shot of her at her desk. "get a stack of papers together and and pen, and look through them," you say. this is just how it works. with any news crew anywhere. an equally - and i'll say more likely - interpretation of anderson's "scoop" about the ambulances is that hezbollah was doing the news a FAVOR. are they really going to sit around waiting for those ambulances to respond to something? that image on the screen is going to be the same regardless: an ambulance zooming off. presumably the camera crews that were shooting that needed that image in order to tell their story. we can disagree about whether this is ethical but all newsrooms EVERYWHERE have already agreed, a long time ago, that if the story itself is true, and the words coming out of people's mouths are uncoached, and the images are things that would be happening anyway, the specific shots can be just as rehearsed as you like. now, if these news crews were actually bamboozled somehow by the ambulances, and seized on them and were like "news flash! ambulances have just pulled away from our incredibly stage-managed tour with hezbollah" than yeah they're incredibly stupid and hezbollah is going to have a cake-walk in the american media.

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 28 July 2006 18:23 (nineteen years ago)

Fun in NROville:

Was just talking to a plugged-in U.S. observer who is pretty depressed about where this thing could be headed diplomatically. He worries that the UN meeting next week could be something of a fiasco. If Condi comes to New York for a ministerial meeting of the Security Council, she could be hammered even harder than she was in Rome and the storyline about the isolation of the U.S. could get even more traction. He sees a basic disconnect between the U.S. diplomatic holding pattern (which won't last forever and may soon give way) and the Israeli military campaign (which seems to lack a sense of every-minute-counts urgency). This raises the possibility of the diplomatic window closing before Israel really gets the job done—because Israel thinks it has more time than it really does. The Arabs, Russians, and Chinese will be hammering away at us next week, and while it probably won't get to the point where there's a resolution we have to veto, it might get very hard to keep a call for an immediate cease-fire out of it. He says everything that is coming of Lebanon suggests that Hezbollah is gaining political support rather than losing it, and if this thing ends without Israel having landed a very grave military blow against Hezbollah, the terror group might gain from it after all. It's doubtful that Condi is going to get much for the Lebanese during her trip over the week, since they are in no position to do anything but call for an immediate ceasefire. The Brits still seem to be holding firm, but there's some wobble in Foreign Secretary Beckett and her top staff. For what it's worth...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 28 July 2006 19:10 (nineteen years ago)

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9940/ilovebeirutge4.jpg

kingfish cyclopean ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 28 July 2006 22:43 (nineteen years ago)

ok i realize my last post is a bit much; obv hezbollah was probably not helpfully setting up requested shots from the western media. my point is there's no reason to get "stymied" by this - if you have your story, tell it; anderson cooper has no story, so he must desperately come up with something about how people are misleading him. the shot of the ambulances pulling away could have been perfectly serviceable - and journalistically valid - as accompaniment to an actual story about something. the "scoop" is pitiful - when you boil it down, at face value it's "ragtag faction of hardcore militants try to propaganidize us rather pathetically."

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Saturday, 29 July 2006 00:42 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, you gonna do a story where you depend on their every word for everything you might as well do something like this - http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1832931,00.html

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Saturday, 29 July 2006 02:13 (nineteen years ago)

That's a great article. Helpful of the low level guy to explain the Hezbollah strategy like that, although I suppose he is not saying anything informed opinion would not know already. I'll wager that Hezbollah is like Hamas, in that the rank and file are always ready to move up the ladder as the Israelis exterminate the leaders.

DV (dirtyvicar), Saturday, 29 July 2006 11:11 (nineteen years ago)

And more Stratfor pondering:

The Israeli-Hezbollah war has become routinized. Israeli aircraft fly daily air strikes in Lebanon. Hezbollah rockets strike at Israel. Ground combat takes place among small units just north of the Israeli-Lebanese border. It is a situation that appears, on the surface, to have settled into a sustainable routine. Neither side is clearly making military progress; neither side is under military compulsion to end hostilities; neither side appears to be changing the military equation. Such a war can continue for a long time from a military standpoint. The political dimension determines what happens next. That can range from indefinite continuation of the current pattern of conflict, to an attempt by one side to change the pattern in some decisive way, or the suspension of conflict by means of a political resolution.

Let's begin by considering the war from Hezbollah's point of view. To this point, the war has gone better than the militants could possibly have hoped. First, although they have undoubtedly been hurt by the Israeli air campaign, Hezbollah's operational infrastructure appears intact. The militants continue to fire rockets into Israel, although one gets the sense that the rate of fire is decreasing somewhat. Most important, their forces in south Lebanon appear to have offered significant resistance to elite Israeli units.

In other words, Hezbollah has done what no other Arab fighting force has done. It has not cracked under Israeli air-land attack. This has set in motion an important political process in the Islamic world. At the beginning of the war, the response of Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia was to condemn Hezbollah for starting a war that could only bring ruin to Lebanon. By extension, the Saudis were attacking Iran for once again generating a conflict in which Tehran took no risks and in which the force it was backing could not prevail.

Hezbollah's ability to resist Israel has shifted that political dynamic. Hezbollah is achieving its strategic political goal. Simply by resisting and not collapsing, it is establishing itself as the most effective fighting force yet to engage the Israelis. Expectations of disaster confounded, the Islamic opponents of Hezbollah -- as well as secular opponents -- are now trapped in Hezbollah's apparent success. They must close ranks and support them.

Hezbollah can't do better than it is doing now. It is not going to invade Israel and at some point, Israeli air force attacks and the sheer passage of time will undermine its ability to resist. At the very least, the militants are not likely in the course of this fighting to be in a better position than they are today. It is, therefore, in their interest that a cease-fire be declared as soon as possible. If the war ended today, Israel would have achieved nothing definitive in its attacks. Rockets would still be available for attacks on Israel. Israel would not have room to maneuver in south Lebanon. A peacekeeping force would stand between the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and Hezbollah as equals. It follows that Hezbollah should want an unconditional cease-fire right now.

Turn to Israel's view of the war. Certainly, none of its strategic objectives have been achieved. Hezbollah has not been shattered. Rocket attacks continue. The Israelis have not routed Hezbollah infantry in their probing attacks but have chosen to retreat after suffering casualties. Most important, they have suffered a political defeat. Hezbollah's credibility and standing have been enhanced. More than two weeks into this war, Israel has not achieved its political objectives and is further from its political objectives than when it began.

Most important -- and this is both a military and political evolution -- Israel is in the process of degrading its single most important asset, which is the idee fixe in the Middle East that the IDF is an irresistible force. This perception has shaped military and political thinking in and about the region since 1956, when Israel defeated the Egyptian army in the Sinai, and was reinforced in 1967. There has been an assumption that any Arab force that engaged the IDF on the battlefield would be defeated quickly and devastatingly. If that perception is lost, then Israel has in fact suffered a significant military defeat that will have resounding political consequences.

Obviously, nothing we have said here is not thoroughly known to the Israelis. Therefore, the question that needs to be answered is: What exactly they are doing? In particular, this question must be answered: Given that the Israelis have not achieved their goals using the air campaign, why are they choosing to continue it? It is interesting to note that this is not only our question. It is a question that we have had expressed to us by Israelis and Arabs, including those in Lebanon. The perception is that Israel could defeat Hezbollah if it chooses. That view persists. The question is why they have not yet done so. Some potential explanations:

1.The air campaign is actually proceeding as expected. This is on an accelerating curve in which little progress will be apparent until a threshold is reached, at which point Hezbollah's infrastructure will suddenly crumble.

2. Israel has had a massive intelligence failure, deeper than the one that happened in 1973. Israeli intelligence underestimated the maturity of Hezbollah and the robustness of its command and control. The Israelis failed to understand the militants' rocketry capabilities or the sophistication of their defensive positions in south Lebanon. They made assumptions about Hezbollah's capabilities that were simply wrong.

3. Israel knew of Hezbollah's capabilities. They understood that a broad ground attack on Hezbollah would involve massive Israeli casualties. They saw the rocket attacks as less costly than a major ground offensive and therefore went to an air campaign to inflict as much damage possible without incurring unacceptable losses.

4. Israel could defeat Hezbollah but is concerned that the costs of an occupation would outweigh the strategic benefits. Therefore, they are not taking ground that they would have to hold in counterinsurgency operations.

5. Israel has tried the air campaign, hoping that it would work. However, Israel has a plan B standing by that would involve a conventional assault along the lines we have discussed before.

6. Israel intends to broaden the war beyond Hezbollah, toward its patrons in Syria and Iran, and is biding its time in doing this.

All of these are plausible explanations. In figuring out which is most plausible, we must begin with a core premise: From the Israeli point of view the current situation, which leaves Hezbollah in a military draw and a political victory, is unacceptable. There are many reasons for this but for Israel, retaining the IDF's reputation for invincibility is an absolute requirement. Ending the war with the perception that a subnational organization can fight the IDF to a draw is not acceptable, regardless of the level of exertion required.

Seen through this lens, which we are confident shows Israeli thinking, the air campaign can be allowed to continue by itself only if battle damage assessment (BDA) shows that it will shortly prove fruitful. We do not have access to Israeli BDA, and we have heard that there is serious debate among Israel's military leaders over the status of the war, with the army questioning air force estimates. However, in our view, there is nothing that is likely to happen in the next few days that will change Hezbollah's operational capabilities.

Whether this was the result of an intelligence failure or of concern about Hezbollah's capabilities, at this point, the Israelis have little choice but to accept the reality and the casualties. They have mobilized a substantial force, clearly in anticipation that it might be needed for offensive operations. Whether Israel is drawn into counterinsurgency or not, retaining the perception of military supremacy supersedes all other considerations. We expect that a Plan B ground offensive was always present as an option, but whether it was hardwired into the plan or not is no longer an issue. Unless the Israelis plan to come out of the war with Hezbollah more powerful than ever, and if the air campaign doesn't suddenly work, they must go in on the ground.

Israel does not have the reach for Iran. The Israelis could launch nuclear weapons, but that simply isn't an option politically. As for Syria, if Israel toppled al Assad, his successor regime would be worse unless Israel would want to occupy Syria. The United States cannot pacify Iraq with 135,000 troops; Israel doesn't have that many to devote to an occupation. Plus, the IDF has never captured a major enemy city in its history, declining to go into Beirut. If attritional warfare bothers Israel, taking Damascus is not an option. The invasion of Syria is not on the table, although selective air attacks are possible.

The widening of the war is not a serious military option. A cease-fire at this time would be politically disastrous for Israel. It must, given its options, try to inflict a decisive defeat on Hezbollah, and a cease-fire would deny Israel that opportunity. The political effect on the region would be dramatic. It may well be that the Israelis have no appetite for casualties or counterinsurgency. It may be that their view of Hezbollah is that it is more an irritant than a threat. Nevertheless, the current evolution of this conflict forces them to make some dramatic decisions.

We note that the war is routinized. That should not be taken as proof that more dramatic events are not being planned. If it turns out that Israel declines major ground operations and accepts a cease-fire, the political map of the region -- geographically and psychologically -- would change decisively and to Israel's massive disadvantage. Thus we must assume that with cease-fires approaching and no decision on the ground, Israel will shift its strategy.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 29 July 2006 23:13 (nineteen years ago)

"routinized" - ugh!

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 29 July 2006 23:53 (nineteen years ago)

Croutinized. (Cretinized?)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 30 July 2006 00:28 (nineteen years ago)

They say lightning never strikes the same place twice, but now Israel has staged a second Qana massacre: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5228224.stm

DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 30 July 2006 08:48 (nineteen years ago)

You know, I have to say this: I really do feel sorry for Israel. They are (and have been) in a position where the only course of action "acceptable" to the world is to let Hezbollah or whoever attack them at will. Any reprisals on their part get drastically more coverage - partially because Israeli attacks are, one-for-one, significantly more effective than Hezbollah's - and therefore they will always come out of a conflict looking worse.

While I have sympathy for Lebanese civilians, I have little truck with Lebanese ministers who call for an immediate ceasefire period, end of story, without acknowledging the truth. Which is that Israel had left Lebanon alone for years and there is a very clear reason why this conflict broke out.

I would love to see a politician anywhere brave enough to take a "turn the other cheek" strategy: evaculate civilians, impose sanctions and blockades, bankrupt the opposing government through lawsuits, etc., (Yes, I know totally unrealistic.) Somehow you have to make it perfectly clear who the "guilty" party is.

i'll mitya halfway (mitya), Sunday, 30 July 2006 10:35 (nineteen years ago)

mitya is any of that based on anything, or are you just making it all up?

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Sunday, 30 July 2006 11:18 (nineteen years ago)

i mean, i don't know why i keep comin back to these threads - the intellectual dishonesty here is no worse or better than any other place people discuss "israel v. whoever" but it's really disappointing. i thought we were better than that here.

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Sunday, 30 July 2006 11:21 (nineteen years ago)

uh oh!

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/07/30/world/30qana4_600.jpg

a name means a lot just by itself (lfam), Sunday, 30 July 2006 13:16 (nineteen years ago)

tracer, just my emotional response, based on emotional comments from lebanon i was watching on tv. call me naive, but i really don't believe in this day and time, in this kind of conflict, that generals active say "Hey, there's an apartment building, let's flatten it" and i'm sick of people suggesting it. it's a war and people are doing to die, and they're not all going to be military.

i'm not sure what you find intellectually "dishonest" about that, but i agree there probably isn't any point in discussing it.

i'll mitya halfway (mitya), Sunday, 30 July 2006 13:36 (nineteen years ago)

Mitya, the IDF does deliberately target certain apartment buildings because many Hezbollah operations are housed in apartment buildings. I think it's questionable whether that makes it right to target an apartment building though.

Abbadavid Berman (Hurting), Sunday, 30 July 2006 14:18 (nineteen years ago)

mitya this is dishonest, for instance:

They are (and have been) in a position where the only course of action "acceptable" to the world is to let Hezbollah or whoever attack them at will.

this is no one's position. no one finds that acceptable.

Israel had left Lebanon alone for years

this, too, is flatly untrue.

they will always come out of a conflict looking worse.

worse than hamas? worse than hezbollah? please. i think this is the worst, though:

Somehow you have to make it perfectly clear who the "guilty" party is.

by bombing them? assassinating their political leaders? israel has specialized in exactly this kind of "we are the judge, jury and hangman" role, more and more in the last few years - sheik yassin is just one of the more inflammatory examples. i don't think israel has benefited from this mentality.

intellectual honesty is couching your opponents' arguments in the STRONGEST possible way and then arguing against that. then you'll really know you've got a case and your opponents have a tough time arguing back because their big ammo has already been used.

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Sunday, 30 July 2006 14:49 (nineteen years ago)

Stratfor suspects something big is up:

At this moment there appears to be a major shift taking place in the war. Though the scope of the operation is unclear, it appears the Israelis have shifted to a new phase of the war, focusing on broader and more intense ground operations. It could be that this is the opening phase of a broader raid-in-force against Hezbollah that might go beyond southern Lebanon. We do not know this for certain, but it does warrant alerting our readers to the possibility. Various bits of evidence point in this direction.

For example, early Sunday Israeli time, an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesman was quoted as saying, "We have drawn our conclusions from battles in other areas, we have learned our lesson and are about to embark on another mission. There is no intention whatsoever to occupy this region or any other -- only to arrive, to act, and when we're done, to get out."

Link to map of Israel/Lebanon border for reference

There are reports of new areas involved in fighting and new Israeli units being engaged. For example, Israeli forces are now fighting in the area of Qana. This is a few miles southeast of Tyre and deep into southern Lebanon. We have heard that the Qana action consists of engineers, armor and infantry, indicating a more traditional combined arms effort. The engineers would be clearing mines, bulldozing fortifications and clearing roads damaged by Israeli airstrikes. Infantry would be clearing the area of anti-tank teams and opening the way for broader armored thrusts to destroy rear infrastructure and isolate forward Hezbollah positions. There are additional reports of engagements near and to the west of the Israeli panhandle in the Dan-Dafna-Metulla region, along with heavy artillery fire in this region. This would be the jump-off point for an attack both westward along the Litani and northward into the Bekaa Valley. There were extensive reports of a major armored buildup in this area over the past 48 hours. This would also explain the decision to disengage temporarily at Bent Jbail in preparation for the new phase of operations.

Interestingly, the report about Qana that we have says the attacking force is from the Nahal Division. According to Israeli media, the Galilee Division, which normally has full responsibility for the entire Lebanese border, has been given responsibility for the western half of the border, while Nahal Division has been made responsible for the eastern half. If all of this is true and the Qana fighting is being carried out by Nahal, then the action at Qana represents a drive westward from the northern panhandle rather than a northern drive from Galilee division. This is of great importance because it indicates that the armor massed in the panhandle is moving in a broad encirclement as per traditional IDF doctrine. Nahal has been moving rapidly during daylight hours. Ground operations involving the Golani Brigade were also reported in Taibe last night. If Nahal moved west, it would have passed through Taibe. If the division were planning on a move north to the Bekaa Valley, it will need Taibe. The town is in a critical location.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has canceled her visit to Lebanon. She is, however, going to meet with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday night and return to the United States on Monday. If nothing important were happening, Rice would stick to her schedule. If the United States objected to what is happening, Israel would postpone until she left or she would be on the plane right now. Therefore, a logical conclusion is that whatever is happening makes her trip to Lebanon pointless or harmful but that she wants to signal that there is no strain in relations with Israel. If there is a major attack coming, Washington has signed off on it.

We are approaching nightfall in Israel. If this is indeed a major shift operationally -- and we simply cannot be certain at this point, in spite of pieces seeming to fall into place -- then we would expend rapid movements of Israeli forces through the night, and we should get a sense by morning, Israel time, of just how deep they expect to go. At this point, having made the decision to shift to larger-scale, more traditional operations, Israel will want to proceed as rapidly as possible for operational and diplomatic reasons. If the Israelis are going, they will be going rapidly.

It should also be noted that Israel attacked key roads and bridges along the Syrian-Lebanese border. This indicates that Israel is not intending to use those roads to attack Syria (otherwise they would have wanted them intact) but does want to protect its flank from any Syrian countermove. It is the least intrusive action Israel can take. They neither want to attack nor be attacked by Syria.

At this point, if this should take place, we will get a better sense of Hezbollah's broader capabilities. Its forward troops seemed to be extremely competent. Whether troops in other areas are equally capable remains to be seen. Also remaining to be seen is the effect of the Israeli air campaign on the militants' numbers, morale and coordination. If they are an effective fighting force, we would expect effective attacks against armored columns using anti-tank weapons and mines, and a slow evolution. If they are severely weakened, as some reports we are receiving from Lebanon say they are, the attack will be broader.

Remember that in our view Hezbollah does not expect to defeat Israel's main force, but wants to draw it into Lebanon to impose an Iraqi/Afghan style insurgency. Therefore, an apparent collapse of Hezbollah (as with the Taliban and Saddam Hussein's forces) does not necessarily mean defeat but rather can mean a shift to insurgency rather than conventional resistance. As the IDF statement makes clear, Israel does not intend to occupy and expose itself to such actions. It should also be remembered that both within and outside of Lebanon, Hezbollah has historically used terror techniques to impose penalties on enemies and shape the political environment. Hezbollah pioneered suicide bombing in Lebanon during the 1980s.

In conclusion, we do not have definitive intelligence that Israel has shifted to a radical new course. This could simply be another phase in a piecemeal operation. However, given Israeli practice in the past and political disputes within the Israeli government, we regard it as reasonable to alert our readers to the possibility of the beginning phases of a major, more traditional Israeli ground offensive designed to destroy Hezbollah in detail. We will know more clearly over the next 12 hours.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 30 July 2006 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

tracer: "wrong" and "dishonest" are two different things. i make no claim to particular expertise.

by bombing them? assassinating their political leaders? israel has specialized in exactly this kind of "we are the judge, jury and hangman" role, more and more in the last few years - sheik yassin is just one of the more inflammatory examples. i don't think israel has benefited from this mentality.

you took this EXACTLY the opposite of how I intended it (note phrase "turn the other cheek"). my point was that Israel has inflicted so much damage on Lebanon that it is now very difficult to defend them. Lebanon now looks (and is) the victim, and Hezbollah like the only group able to "defend" the country.

i'll mitya halfway (mitya), Sunday, 30 July 2006 18:39 (nineteen years ago)

Though the scope of the operation is unclear, it appears the Israelis have shifted to a new phase of the war, focusing on broader and more intense ground operations.

Ned, why do you keep posting stuff from those Stratfor twatmunks? They have been continuously saying that Israel is about to launch a major ground offensive any minute now since this conflict started.

My own view is that now that Israel has butchered more civilians in one go than it itself has lost in the whole conflict, I reckon they can declare victory and stop. Alternatively, I reckon that as with Qana Massacre I they will face increasingly insurmountable pressure to stop the slaughter. Either way, the result is the whole thing winding down to the status quo ante, except with Hezbollah now holding two Israeli soldiers.

DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 30 July 2006 21:37 (nineteen years ago)

have no idea what you meant by "turn the other cheek", in your context, i'll mitya halfway--it is v unclear. please explain

RJG (RJG), Sunday, 30 July 2006 21:40 (nineteen years ago)

Ned, why do you keep posting stuff from those Stratfor twatmunks?

Because they're about the only people talking about this thing that realize that morality has no place at the table with the functioning of realpolitik.

That said, they are obviously tea leaf readers first and foremost, and their predictions can fail.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 30 July 2006 21:42 (nineteen years ago)

And as it happens, literally as I typed that, this arrived in my inbox from them:

The U.S. State Department said July 30 that Israel agreed to a 48-hour cessation of airstrikes in southern Lebanon beginning immediately. The reason given was to allow for an investigation of the Israeli airstrike in the Lebanese village of Qana. We assume this is also intended to permit humanitarian assistance and the extraction of civilians to proceed. No mention was made of a halt to ground operations, but it was said Israel reserves the right to strike to suppress rocket fire into Israel. That means that unless Hezbollah also suspends rocket operations, Israel will continue its strikes.

It also leaves open the possibility that Israeli aircraft will be permitted to come to support Israeli ground forces that come under attack. If the cease-fire does not halt ground operations and does permit airstrikes against forces attacking Israel, and if Hezbollah does not halt rocket attacks, the announcement means relatively little. If Hezbollah does halt rocket attacks and ground attacks, it will have created a 48-hour cease-fire in the air that Israel will have to deliberately break to resume the war.

The Israeli air force has been operating intensely for almost three weeks and clearly can use a 48-hour stand down. This decision, if confirmed opens the door to a cease-fire in place that would leave Hezbollah with a draw -- a victory from Hezbollah's point of view. At this point, Hezbollah has a critical decision to make that will not be known until dawn local time, as that is when Hezbollah has launched its first salvoes at Israel in the past.

This does not halt ground operations. The end of air attacks is subject to Israel's interpretation of Hezbollah's actions. It is not clear at this moment that this is as significant as it might appear. It depends partly on Hezbollah's actions and partly on Israel's intentions. Forces that we think are moving forward are exempt from this cease-fire, and may or may not have to move without air support.

We will continue to monitor and analyze the meaning of this surprising move.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 30 July 2006 21:43 (nineteen years ago)

Because they're about the only people talking about this thing that realize that morality has no place at the table with the functioning of realpolitik.

OTM.

starke (starke), Sunday, 30 July 2006 21:53 (nineteen years ago)


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