bojo is king, brexit is on, stuff is fvcked, tomorrow starts here -- new govt new thread new battle

Maybe Lab should make a ton of photoshopped photos and videos of cities burning due to climate change and then going 'lol we're going to die' in big RED letters unless you vote for Green New Deal. That will do it.

Or I should say Packaging just isn't the entirety of politics. LOL we're all going to die should not be a slogan.

Awful lot of people trying to pass off the blame on Corbyn for their own decades of neglect

Messaging is also important because the other side will (if they're competent) have messaging about you anyway. You don't need to win the day, but if the main feedback from canvassers is "The public don't like Corbyn", it's too late at that point to hammer on the policies.

They are not going to like Sir Keir or RL-B or Tony Blair if they are selling policies that threaten wealth and property.

And that's because they would be hammered by the messaging. So how do you cut through? You work with people, show how you can help.

How about not advertising your threat to the wealthy beforehand, only to enact that threat once in power ;)

lol do you think they are stupid?

making the rich pay their share is a popular policy with regular people though, when they hear about it unfiltered through the lens of media owned by billionaires

They won't fall for tactical voting sites either xp = lol rich be readin' The Canary and deciding that yes, their suicide would be good, actually.

Has anyone told Tim Farron to check Celtic in the Europa League this season? Plus we beat Lazio home and away, which is a greater contribution to the fight against the far right than his party has ever managed.

James Meadway: https://novaramedia.com/2019/12/17/labours-economic-plans-what-went-wrong/

missed this from a couple of days ago

A third of premature deaths in England are linked to social inequality, study finds https://t.co/e2tPpT8CKY

— Peter Stefanovic (@PeterStefanovi2) December 16, 2019

Packaging a message isn't politics.

2017. I know what I'm doing when it comes to Brexit. I'm going to do what you guys said. I am decisive

2019. I don't really know what it is I'm doing when it comes to Brexit, but its probably not going to what you guys said. I am indecisive, possibly shifty and duplicitous, and maybe on other issues too.

Kamala's decline started the minute she started flip flopping on M4A. Warren's drop started for same reason. It doesn't matter what your policy is if your packaging says I'm not really even going to do it

Boris only promised one thing, and his credibility on delivering it was high

-er than Corbyns

nashwan - thanks - really good piece.

Lab's position on Brexit didn't fall because of the package around it. You can't package a 2nd ref when the public had enough.
I mean most ppl in this thread had enough, how many times was an amendment cooked up and people here didn't know what the hell it was?! People were angry (I actually did hear this in Battersea a bit, most clearly from a woman in her 30s who wanted Brexit finished as an issue but was only going to vote Labour for the local issues).

Still going through Medway very good clear thinking but sadly that might've been a strategy for minimising losses.

Like yeah the stuff on Kamala and Warren is a joke of an analogy. The only issue where Corbyn was made to traingulate was Brexit and that's because the membership are overwhelmingly pro-EU. Even then it took years. We lose the country but keeping younger generations onside if this goes wrong seems to be the long-term bet lol.

That Novara piece was one of the things I was thinking of and couldn't find this morning. Of course packaging a message isn't the entirety of politics and nor should it be, no one's saying go full Blair here, but it does matter, as being able to communicate a coherent and easily understandable narrative about what you will do with the power you're asking for.

Johnson was able to capitalise on the fact that people were sick of Westminster procedure and manoeuvring and the simplicity of that message drowned out nearly everything else despite the Tories' manifest failures. This wasn't just a rejection of Corbyn, above all it was a rejection of people like Dominic Grieve.

It's also a rejection of meetings, stationery and neat handwriting. Give me the man as much power as he wants and let him roll with it. What are all these people actually even for?

Meadway piece is good

as Bill Clinton put it in his autobiography, one of his earliest political lessons was that given a choice between “strong and wrong” vs “weak and right” the public will go for the former every time

Don't think that's really how it's worked out. Parliament were wrong to play those games, it was irresponsible.

This though, is more of what I'm talking about and as big a reason why socialism loses. There just aren't enough good, decent people around.

Keep thinking about people sneering at stuff like this, and all the anecdotes of Corbyn helping constituents with housing, and how we were in rental poverty in a freezing cold & dangerously damp house in Streatham yet felt there was no point even bothering contacting Chuka Umunna pic.twitter.com/FNN63yLR1T

— Wolfgang La Rouge (@TreborRhurbarb) December 18, 2019

That account is a prize cunt, whoever’s behind its. They were always banging on about Corbyn’s support for the IRA and backing it up with coverage of shite like him voting against the Anglo-Irish agreement. When I was trying to unpick various undercurrents of the arguments against him, one of the ones people itt will remember me mentioning a million times is anti-Irish sentiment. This account was going on about how opposing the Anglo-Irish agreement was an extremist position, and then calling ordinary Irish people replying to point out that Fianna Fáil had opposed it at home provos. It was as clear as day to me because these things bleed through. Hope the cunt enjoyed a well-deserved drink when there were No Surrender chants at the Uxbridge & South Ruislip count.

Of all the insane bollocks they've spouted "even if we didn't have any new nurses, just by reducing the number who leave, you would end up with more nurses in the NHS" may be the thing that finally broke mepic.twitter.com/Qp2oOlZufZ

— James Felton (@JimMFelton) December 18, 2019

I like Starmer's pitch. So far I think I support him of the candidates who've moved towards standing. His appeal will probably grow as Brexit worsens, too. Crucially, he's said that the policies need to remain radical

Emily Thornberry now too, I don't know why she's bothering though.

Obviously it would be nicer to have someone who's not from London and not male - let's see if anyone suitable emerges. Can't wait for the ILX poll

Thornberry, RLB, Burgon etc are political detritus now and Malcolm Tucker needs to tell them so

RLB is the favourite to win, hardly detritus!

yes, this is just like "In The Thick Of It"

She's the favourite to win because she's got good principles, was close to Corbyn, has been groomed for the role and has Cabinet support. If she became leader I'd fall in line but she is not, as it stands, popular with the public at large, and from what I've seen of her I'm not convinced she could win an election.

Persuade me!

Who are the 'people at large' and who says she isn't popular with them? This isn't the football forum again is it?

This thread: an echo chamber out of touch with the real world
The legendary football forum: salt of the earth lads who have no politics except banter

Mostly from the deep science of looking at the most-liked responses to tweets tbf

The football forum is mostly middle-aged office workers!

Do persuade me, though

Twitter. Even better.

(And it isn't banter, more like centrist-dad haranguing sprinkled with a few progressives and the occasional incoherent far-right rant)

xxp as opposed to here?

I would be interested in hearing more canvassing tales from alphie tbh

anvil said it - he said that the next leader needs to be decisive and convincingly promise action. Can RLB be that person? Can anyone connected to Corbyn be that person? McDonnell could have been that person, and I think Rayner could still, but it seems neither are going to stand.

Persuade me. Post clips if you can. Canvassing tales too

What is “promise action”? Does she need to be banging her fist on the table, demanding military action? Do you understand the different things that apply to women in political life that would be thrown at her?

Steps to podium, "I promise action" *cut to wildly cheering crowds*

Just speaking directly and confidently will do, and handling difficult interlocutors well. Any existing evidence of this will be gratefully received

Can’t wait til RL-B is “strident”, “shrill” and “overbearing” lads

And yes, obviously the misogyny of mainstream perception makes her job that much harder

Am really disgusted with Labourites trying to get noticed and bolster their 'woke' credentials by painting Jess Phillips as racist.

You don't help the anti-racist cause by conjuring up claims out of thin air.

Especially if you kept quiet about anti-Semitism in the party.

— Sunny Hundal (@sunny_hundal) December 18, 2019

Of all the candidates I really can't imagine why anyone would go for Emily Thornberry. Every other name in the frame has some point of differentiation, some reason to vote for them even when I disagree with it (Cooper, Nandy etc). I don't see hers at all and she's proving to be gaffe-prone.

RLB so far is as much a blank canvass for projection as Starmer is, a point of identification more than anything else. That will change as we move forward I'm sure. I've noticed they've started calling her Becky, if they can make that stick it might help. Everyone knows a Becky.

Presumably Steven Kinnock is about to announce his candidacy as well? Stoked for the madness.

Yeah nobody will be voting for Thornberry imo.

All this 'people imo what went wrong is that things weren't done well enough and the solution is to do things well enough' is as agonising as the result.

Any singular 'what went wrong' is nonsense (though digging into specific aspects can be good - thanks for the Novara article, nashwan)

If I were Jeremy Corbyn I would simply;;;; win an election