bojo is king, brexit is on, stuff is fvcked, tomorrow starts here -- new govt new thread new battle

The Marxist stuff was thrown a lot in 2017 too and the public did not turn on Corbyn after the Manchester attacks. Why are people forgetting it?

Willing to bet that people got fed of the legal and parliamentary games. That's why Lab candidates like Nandy going on about listening is bullshit. How are you listening? It's just a passive process. Beat the racist scum and do something (anything!) for the rest. Try to pretend you care.

We need this here.

The French enjoy free and universal health care, free schools and universities, a maximum 35-hour workweek, six weeks’ annual vacation, paid parental leave and an enviable welfare safety net.

So why is France always fired up? Blame malaise. https://t.co/1YVIOtGHvJ

— Los Angeles Times (@latimes) December 13, 2019

That article is a fucking laugh. Anglo-French people going about how people are spoilt? Wanna come here instead?

Take out the Anglos, seriously.

Ugh, Newsnight on the Labour Party's lack of patriotism. Fucking awful.

― Soup on my lanyard (Tom D.), Tuesday, December 17, 2019 11:17 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

IT was Newsnight where Owen Smith started going on about lack of Patriotism in Corbyn back when he was challenging him over leadershio. I thought it was going a bit far at the time. Is that a standing trope with them or just something they feel has stuck before.

that article is amazing. hmm what could the connection be between rights and popular pressure... what a paradox

That article is a fucking laugh. Anglo-French people going about how people are spoilt? Wanna come here instead?

Take out the Anglos, seriously.

― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, December 18, 2019 8:38 AM (forty-three seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

I thought the UK had a uniquely privileged position inside teh Eu where things had been bent to fit them and elements were still feeling it just wasn't good enough for tehm. Will wait to see just how great a mess that leads to but seems quite a big one at this juncture.

Anne-Elisabeth Moutet is French, but seems happy enough, perhaps because she was educated abroad and has spent time in the United States.

Lol that article is a fucking joke.

des quiddités

Perhaps

" "

Q: Why are the French, who have so much, so quick to protest?
A: The French, who are so quick to protest, have so much.

oh god a Blair speech is due today.. just cannot...time to retreat into the bunker until all the melts have played out their bullshit game or hopefully died.

Boris Johnson has banned ministers from attending the World Economic Forum in Davos next month as he seeks to consolidate the party’s position among working-class voters.

The prime minister, who will also stay away from the annual gathering of national and business leaders, wants to “get on with delivering the priorities of the British people”, a Downing Street source said.

“The emphasis will be upon delivering [the exit deal for] Brexit by 31 January and the NHS. That is what we we promised, not going to Davos,” a source said.

Wow he really does care about the working class amazing whodathunkit he'll bring everyone together!!1!

*shoots self*

May did the same Red Tory lip service in the early days of her premiership.

So, having peeked at Blair’s remarks, he’s saying the Brexit policy Labour should have adopted... was the one Labour adopted in the end? And that Labour should have immediately accepted the result that morning and subjected the government to scrutiny during the A50 process? I haven’t looked at the whole thing but I’m waiting for him to mention there should’ve been half a dozen red lines beyond which Labour would say Brexit would have been too hard. AGTYHGGJTGUJR

Starting to feel like a lot of people are latching onto the community aspect as not just part of the solution but the only real solution - cf that Tom Whyman piece upthread. And it's important, it's hugely important, but it's a long-term project. You cannot rebuild networks and institutions that have withered over decades in the space of one Parliament, even two. Councils are underfunded and neutered, unions have declined, there may not be enough people on the ground in former Red Wall seats who can do this.

One reason people are latching onto this stuff though is because it means you can downplay the importance of things like packaging and messaging, because they seem a bit New Labour, a bit Peter Mandelson. But last week shows that this stuff WORKS, and a lack of it can be disastrous. The appeal of Corbyn was in part about the lack of packaging, people assumed that eventually the message would get through and drown everything else out, and that partially worked in 2017, but one thing everyone seems to agree on is that this year's was a badly unfocused and overstuffed campaign.

You need packaging and proper messaging AS WELL AS long-term community engagement. Labour haven't had anyone who was good at that since Blair - Miliband tried but his team were terrible at it (anyone remember One Nation Labour?) The potential must exist to present a lot of these policies in ways (and with people) who don't repel key segments of the electorate.

There are rumours (probably made up) that RLB would retain the likes of Seumas Milne and Karie Murphy and that's the one thing that absolutely should not happen. No one involved in co-ordinating this disaster should be allowed to organise a major campaign ever again.

Also, I'm wholly certain working class hero BJ will spend every available minute around xmas to free Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, a citizen who's fate he fucked up so severely she won't be spending xmas at Whetherspoons, that's for sure.

Just unloading some rage here nbd. Probably need a break from this thread as well.

Bentall thread & Matt DC extremely urgent, key and otm

xp yeah same, the synapses are fucked from the sheer onslaught!

I did enjoy this though:

The Labour leadership contenders as members of Derry Girls, a thread

— Sean (@seandsmyth) December 18, 2019

pic.twitter.com/8p7VGVOLWD

— Matt O'Hanrahanrahan (@mjrsumption) December 18, 2019

lol, otm

"The appeal of Corbyn was in part about the lack of packaging, people assumed that eventually the message would get through and drown everything else out, and that partially worked in 2017, but one thing everyone seems to agree on is that this year's was a badly unfocused and overstuffed campaign."

It worked in 2017 because the campaign was not allowed to become about Brexit. The Tories learnt that lesson, and that one thing was enough once Johnson had a deal and shut parliament down to show what he was prepared to do.

There was a thread I posted earlier from a Labour member who said that Momentum led events and outreach in other parts of the country slowed down after 2017. It became election ready -- basically its a different sort of 'socialist' packaging! You can say the manifesto was overstuffed and ambitious but more than likely is that the organising in communities was pretty much poor and people were not ready for the possibilities in it at both times. What probably registered more in 2017 was Corbyn's desire to respect the referendum result combined with policies that were popular, mostof which did not change.

Throughout Corbyn's time council results were always bad becuase Lab councillors are often bad at politics and took the blame for Tory decisions, and plenty of anecdotes of basically corruption and cruelty from them...they are just not good enough. So this is rightly being looked at. Part of the message is that politics has to be re-built from below. Packaging a message isn't politics. Blair's former constituency is Tory now and that's all you need to know.

tim farron roars back into frontline politics with... whatever the fuck this is

You are half right at best - BJ and DC are basically Celtic: anyone can win the title if your opposition is abysmal.... and then you get humiliated in Europe. https://t.co/MecpMOt9oJ

— Tim Farron (@timfarron) December 17, 2019

Maybe Lab should make a ton of photoshopped photos and videos of cities burning due to climate change and then going 'lol we're going to die' in big RED letters unless you vote for Green New Deal. That will do it.

Or I should say Packaging just isn't the entirety of politics. LOL we're all going to die should not be a slogan.

Awful lot of people trying to pass off the blame on Corbyn for their own decades of neglect

Messaging is also important because the other side will (if they're competent) have messaging about you anyway. You don't need to win the day, but if the main feedback from canvassers is "The public don't like Corbyn", it's too late at that point to hammer on the policies.

They are not going to like Sir Keir or RL-B or Tony Blair if they are selling policies that threaten wealth and property.

And that's because they would be hammered by the messaging. So how do you cut through? You work with people, show how you can help.

How about not advertising your threat to the wealthy beforehand, only to enact that threat once in power ;)

lol do you think they are stupid?

making the rich pay their share is a popular policy with regular people though, when they hear about it unfiltered through the lens of media owned by billionaires

They won't fall for tactical voting sites either xp = lol rich be readin' The Canary and deciding that yes, their suicide would be good, actually.

Has anyone told Tim Farron to check Celtic in the Europa League this season? Plus we beat Lazio home and away, which is a greater contribution to the fight against the far right than his party has ever managed.

James Meadway: https://novaramedia.com/2019/12/17/labours-economic-plans-what-went-wrong/

missed this from a couple of days ago

A third of premature deaths in England are linked to social inequality, study finds https://t.co/e2tPpT8CKY

— Peter Stefanovic (@PeterStefanovi2) December 16, 2019

Packaging a message isn't politics.

2017. I know what I'm doing when it comes to Brexit. I'm going to do what you guys said. I am decisive

2019. I don't really know what it is I'm doing when it comes to Brexit, but its probably not going to what you guys said. I am indecisive, possibly shifty and duplicitous, and maybe on other issues too.

Kamala's decline started the minute she started flip flopping on M4A. Warren's drop started for same reason. It doesn't matter what your policy is if your packaging says I'm not really even going to do it

Boris only promised one thing, and his credibility on delivering it was high

-er than Corbyns

nashwan - thanks - really good piece.

Lab's position on Brexit didn't fall because of the package around it. You can't package a 2nd ref when the public had enough.
I mean most ppl in this thread had enough, how many times was an amendment cooked up and people here didn't know what the hell it was?! People were angry (I actually did hear this in Battersea a bit, most clearly from a woman in her 30s who wanted Brexit finished as an issue but was only going to vote Labour for the local issues).

Still going through Medway very good clear thinking but sadly that might've been a strategy for minimising losses.

Like yeah the stuff on Kamala and Warren is a joke of an analogy. The only issue where Corbyn was made to traingulate was Brexit and that's because the membership are overwhelmingly pro-EU. Even then it took years. We lose the country but keeping younger generations onside if this goes wrong seems to be the long-term bet lol.

That Novara piece was one of the things I was thinking of and couldn't find this morning. Of course packaging a message isn't the entirety of politics and nor should it be, no one's saying go full Blair here, but it does matter, as being able to communicate a coherent and easily understandable narrative about what you will do with the power you're asking for.

Johnson was able to capitalise on the fact that people were sick of Westminster procedure and manoeuvring and the simplicity of that message drowned out nearly everything else despite the Tories' manifest failures. This wasn't just a rejection of Corbyn, above all it was a rejection of people like Dominic Grieve.

It's also a rejection of meetings, stationery and neat handwriting. Give me the man as much power as he wants and let him roll with it. What are all these people actually even for?

Meadway piece is good

as Bill Clinton put it in his autobiography, one of his earliest political lessons was that given a choice between “strong and wrong” vs “weak and right” the public will go for the former every time

Don't think that's really how it's worked out. Parliament were wrong to play those games, it was irresponsible.

This though, is more of what I'm talking about and as big a reason why socialism loses. There just aren't enough good, decent people around.

Keep thinking about people sneering at stuff like this, and all the anecdotes of Corbyn helping constituents with housing, and how we were in rental poverty in a freezing cold & dangerously damp house in Streatham yet felt there was no point even bothering contacting Chuka Umunna pic.twitter.com/FNN63yLR1T

— Wolfgang La Rouge (@TreborRhurbarb) December 18, 2019

That account is a prize cunt, whoever’s behind its. They were always banging on about Corbyn’s support for the IRA and backing it up with coverage of shite like him voting against the Anglo-Irish agreement. When I was trying to unpick various undercurrents of the arguments against him, one of the ones people itt will remember me mentioning a million times is anti-Irish sentiment. This account was going on about how opposing the Anglo-Irish agreement was an extremist position, and then calling ordinary Irish people replying to point out that Fianna Fáil had opposed it at home provos. It was as clear as day to me because these things bleed through. Hope the cunt enjoyed a well-deserved drink when there were No Surrender chants at the Uxbridge & South Ruislip count.

Of all the insane bollocks they've spouted "even if we didn't have any new nurses, just by reducing the number who leave, you would end up with more nurses in the NHS" may be the thing that finally broke mepic.twitter.com/Qp2oOlZufZ

— James Felton (@JimMFelton) December 18, 2019

I like Starmer's pitch. So far I think I support him of the candidates who've moved towards standing. His appeal will probably grow as Brexit worsens, too. Crucially, he's said that the policies need to remain radical

Emily Thornberry now too, I don't know why she's bothering though.

Obviously it would be nicer to have someone who's not from London and not male - let's see if anyone suitable emerges. Can't wait for the ILX poll

Thornberry, RLB, Burgon etc are political detritus now and Malcolm Tucker needs to tell them so