Is the West Experiencing a Right-Wing Drift?

I meant the practicalities of the policies i.e. single-payer health insurance, nationalising the rail system, etc. A lot of the heavy lifting has been done in terms of thinking through what can be done to address society's problems. But yes of course being in position to actually implement these changes is what won't be given up without a very difficult and asymmetrical fight.

There are new ideas on the left that haven't been tried yet. They're not as well known to the general public, but they have some currency within the new left's discourse. I'm thinking mainly of Murray Bookchin's theory of Communalism, and Abdullah Öcalan's related vision of Democratic Confederalism (currently practiced successfully in Rojava, despite their many enemies). These two visions of society mix ideas from anarchism and socialism to create a "commune of communes", a decentralized, confederated system of local direct democracies.

although i am not that well-versed about what's going on in "rojava" i don't really buy öcalan's conversion from being the leader of a classic vanguardist, "democratic" centralist marxist-leninist organization in the 20th century style to now being the prophet/theoretician of some anarcho-communal system, seems sus as fuck.

("rojava" has a lot of the hallmarks of a kurdish ethno-state for starters - in an area with large ethnic diversity)

I think this interview has some applicability outside Israel as well in terms of thinking through questions like false consciousness, group identity and failures of the left: https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/elections/.premium.MAGAZINE-the-real-reason-mizrahim-vote-for-netanyahu-and-why-the-left-can-t-win-them-over-1.8378189

Spain bucking the trend: https://www.democracynow.org/2020/1/8/headlines/spain_poised_to_form_first_progressive_coalition_government_since_1930s

Mizrachi's position is that leftist universalism is just another identity politics, not a meta-politics, and one that isn't being bought by enough Israeli voters to topple Netanyahu.

that is not what i got from the interview -- but yes he does challenge the inevitability with which universalist liberalism understands itself. but i understand it more as he's critiquing universalist liberalism that tries to use tokenism to win votes from mizrahim who are concerned primarily about the ways in which a universalist ideology undermines their own self-conceptions of identity (thru prisms of religion + nationalism).

iow liberalism senses that identity politics is a thing but cynically doesn't understand what makes it a potent force. it's not merely representationism.

right, that seems right. I was trying to think about how to apply the position outside of Israel, where identity is even more multidimensional than in other western places.

I'm interested in the belief in the inevitability of universalist leftism, a belief that I think is false and crippling to attempts to widen the appeal of leftism.

To each their own teleology.

one thing that struck me is the way that universalist liberalism denies critical components of ppl's identities by smoothing out particularism/difference - i think we do see this in discourses that ask why our children are more precious than someone else's. it's a logical approach but doesn't comport with ppl's intuitive experience where of course their children are the most important. and then tellingly this sort of particularist almost familial politics ends up spiraling outwards where the entire nation becomes conceived as a sort of family and so the failings of leaders are not contextualized as "the crimes of the self-interested and greedy right-wing" or whatever but rather the flaws of a parental figure trying to do the best for the family under trying circumstances etc. (nb i'm not giving credibility to this take just acknowledging that it seems to accurately describe the experiences of many ppl to whom i've chatted about politics who identify as being on the right.) so there's this one critical flaw i think which is in the sublimation or denial of particularism universalism appears like violence meant to destroy the only stability such ppl have. i've mentioned this before on ilx but even the soviets seemed to realize how critical nationalism is and tolerated it. and then this links with the other flaw he seems to be addressing which is the sort of arrogance of the left to think that we have all the answers and that if you deny our answers it must be because you've been lied to or brainwashed. there's a way forward here i think and while i did feel like this interview was broadly applicable to other places i think the state of the left in israel is much worse off than in other places (for these and other reasons cf the failure of Oslo, failure of Gaza withdrawal etc), but we can still see in them things that could be applicable to our movements where maybe these flaws aren't quite as glaring (i think there is a significant part of the Dem party that does embrace some of these things like religion, family, even nationalism, esp among POC!) but still hamper our ability to speak to the right cf "deplorables," or "clinging to their guns and bibles" types of language that definitely seems to meet this critique.

My problem with Mizrachi's article is that his diagnosis of why secular liberalism is in crisis in Israel (it purports to a kind of universal correctness and accuses people not on board of false consciousness) seems to apply pretty well to lots of other ideologies that are not at all in political crisis and are indeed thriving? Can you with a straight face say that Bibi's politics don't present his opponents as either a) deluded fools who vote against their own interests, or b) literal others who are enemies despite being nominal citizens?

In a US context, the idea that people don't like "the sort of arrogance ... to think that we have all the answers and that if you deny our answers it must be because you've been lied to or brainwashed" and thus... vote for Donald Trump? is kind of absurd.

the spiraling of entire nations as families either runs all the way to universalism, or it stops at a point where the_other is found. Israel's an interesting case because in many cultures the Jews have been the_other (cf. David Nirenberg's _Anti-Judaism_).

I agree, Mordy, that people bristle at that kind of arrogance, the condescension, the accusation of false consciousness, all of it. But they bristle at it SELECTIVELY. It's downstream from ideology. (Where ideology doesn't have to mean specifics of policy, it could just mean what kinds of people do you favor and what kinds do you disfavor.)

Totes-not-eugenics by this cool and normal Magyar patriot:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51061499

With an estimated birth rate of 1.48 per woman, Hungary is just one of many Eastern European countries facing demographic decline - due to both low birth rates and the emigration of working-age people to other EU nations.

Some of these countries have implemented their own policies to encourage birth rates to increase. Poland, for example, pays parents 500 zloty (£100) a month per child under its 500+ policy.

child support is normal in european countries but the polish policy is particularly generous (in real terms, obviously a $100 isn't a lot). contrasts with other conservative governments which ostensibly are "pro-family" etc. but incentive having kids less

incentivize

(the average salary in poland is something like 700 pound a month)

I mean we get close to 700 euros a month

I should be getting paid not to have kids, but I'm already doing that

Only if Attila the Hun's blood runs through your veins.

Fun fact: the 'H' in 'Hungary' was added to emphasize continuity with the Huns despite the tenuous historical connection.

*DOESN'T run through your veins

"France has long has natalist policies though."

there is a lot of material on the early 20th c history of this in the Julian Jackson Vichy book, France: The Dark Years. Even before the bloodletting of WW1 there was lots of consternation about low birth rates and so on, and lots of incentives for women to go through childbirth more times than you'd fancy if you wanted to live long in that era, under various regimes between the third republic and the Vichy.

I mean we get close to 700 euros a month

― juntos pedemos (Euler), Friday, January 10, 2020 1:10 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

yes but youre in france, a country which is much wealthier than poland and spends a lot more generally on social welfare

If France was subject to UK levels of austerity i reckon there be some protests!

As we all know, they protest over everything in France unlike use downtrodden forelock-tugging worms over here.

us not use

in the UK they will probably pick some weekend when Ingerland are playing to sneak some bill through parliament - raising the retirement age to 97.

They don’t even need to do that with the majority tbf, they could submit a bill soaked in piss and it’d go straight to the Lords.

xps to Euler re child benefit in Ireland though I think this has been reformed since my family was receiving it

It’s mean in the UK by comparison

thanks gyac, Ireland's child benefit is in line with a number of other EU countries, below France and Germany, but well above Spain, Italy and Greece.

a few questions:

1) are child benefit policies, natalist policies?
2) are natalist policies in general right-wing?
3) are child benefit policies right-wing?

In usa discourse one hears critiques of anti-abortion right-wingers as maintaining that "life ends at birth". Is the implied left response to this critique that the right-wingers should support child benefit policies?

I don't know about anywhere else but child benefits were brought in the UK to stop children starving, they had plenty of children to go round in those days but not all of them were making it into adulthood in one piece. Needless to say, this idea did not originate on the right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_benefits_in_the_United_Kingdom

Calls began for a specific family payment in the early part of the 20th century. These were successfully opposed by those who saw men, earning higher wages than women, as bread-winners, supporting the family through their wages - family allowance payments were seen as socialist and/or feminist in nature.[2] In addition, eugenicist arguments perceived the poor as unworthy of support.

Generally the right in the UK have been periodically exercised by children being born to the wrong sorts of people, not by not enough children being born. I'm unsure anyone even knows how to spell the word natalism in the UK, right or left.

I think non-means tested, universal benefits for children are too socialist to be considered right wing, even with the implication of conservatism and natalism that could be implied by them. It's a complex question on paper I guess. But when right wing governments start stripping these things away and you get the return of mass child poverty, then you can't really consider it right wing. Unless you are living in some warfare state where they are mainly being "benignly" given sugar cubes and cuddles by the state to boost national military service numbers or something.

Yeah, it was under Trudeau that we started giving families $5600-$6600 a year per child, which has had a good impact in reducing child poverty. We increased immigration at the same time though; maybe the issue is that Hungary is trying to restrict immigration while doing this?

It's official: Golden Dawn judged to be a criminal organisation. Most defendants guilty of most charges. Organised crime, murder, attempted murder, weapons possession. A few brief thoughts... #GDtrial

— Daniel Trilling (@trillingual) October 7, 2020

The Greek police is attacking the people marching against the neo-nazis, entirely unprovoked from what I can see. They are not taking the verdict very well... https://t.co/AqbHjYkKCA

— ʏɪᴀɴɴɪs ʙᴀʙᴏᴜʟɪᴀs (@YiannisBab) October 7, 2020

BBC News - France's Macron issues 'republican values' ultimatum to Muslim leaders.

• Children will be given an IDENTIFICATION NUMBER to help locate them.
• Imams must register.
• No political actions as Muslims.

Macron is going full Marine Le Penhttps://t.co/vJg21Xmkzy

— Alex Tiffin (@RespectIsVital) November 19, 2020

Who could have predicted that happening?

Is this that laicitè I keep hearing about?

Nothing says “no state religion, nbd” quite like chipping the children of a minority you’ve deemed subversive. He’ll still lose to the actual fascist, because if you’re voting along those lines people vote for the real deal every time.

(xp) I think we should leave that to its supporters on ILX to answer.

Oh don’t worry, I’m sure there are some flatulent theories about Muslims wanting to take over France and therefore all this being fine and even desirable en route.

never forget that Vichy France was one and half parts occupation, two and a half parts fascist uprising. They delivered a lot more services to fascism than they ever needed to, from cops dragging children out of houses and delivering them straight to Auschwitz, to their Statute of Jews, which was the most deeply, restrictive anti-Semitic legislation than even in Nazi Germany or 30's Poland. France is one deeply fucked up country, always has been. Not meant in a nationalistic chauvinistic sense, I know the UK is just as fucked up .

It's #Thanksgiving, I've got the day off and I've only got two things on my to do list:

Roast a turkey
Explain the FvD meltdown to all my non-Dutch followers.

Let's do this. #FVDsoap pic.twitter.com/X2Yb3F8PCY

— Molly Quell (@MollyQuell) November 26, 2020

This thread is too good not to share, and it's in English so you all can enjoy it. It's about the crumbling and complete implosion of Dutch far-right/alt-right/nazi party Forum voor Democratie, that's been happening the last couple of days. You simply love to see it. It's a long thread, but stick with it, you'll thank me later.

I gotta confess I couldn’t follow that at all, English or not

I lost track of who's who in the zoo somewhere but basically it seems weird creepy Nazis can faction and split as hard as anyone else.

That's what I got, too.

I gotta confess I couldn’t follow that at all, English or not

― is right unfortunately (silby), Thursday, November 26, 2020 9:27 AM (twenty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah, I think you do actually need to know dutch politics for this to be meaningful

On the tragedy/farce tip, which of the Nazi/alt right splinters will become the new Strasserites?