Damon Lindelof's Watchmen

Xpost it's not a fan thing. B.D. Fox created it, but it wasn't used

Which makes sense as he did the RoboCop poster lol

I think it's the copy and not the art style that makes it sound like DKR. Was that the official plot of the movie at some point?

Not in the Mankiewicz scripts, the Englehart scripts, or afaik* Hamm's scripts. Nicholson wasn't signed until after Keaton was attached, which was obv after Burton & Keaton made Beetlejuice. English screenwriters (inc Monty Python-associated actor & Brazil co-writer Charles McKeown) did rewrites during production, as the WGA was on strike, but it's p unlikely (not impossible, as the Furst designs weren't era-specific) that such a major plot element would be both introduced and discarded in the middle of the actual shooting

http://www.projectionboothpodcast.com/2014/12/episode-199-batman-returns.html * <- going off memory of the interview in this podcast

Just have to interject that I chatted with Moore and Gibbons for a bit as a fanboy back in '87 - I may have already told this story: "Jim Shooter hates bugs!", Aubrey Beardsley etc -- and they were both lovely humans and really like the nicest artisitic heroes one could wish to meet. But I am digging the hell out of this tv series as well :(

Anyway, I was reading more of the Peteypedia stuff, and in a profile of Lady Trieu, this little tidbit was included which points in the direction of a theory floated above:

Those recent undertakings include breaking ground on a “Millennium Clock” (see story on A1) and sending newly legalized HDTVs to every residence in the tri-county area “as an apology for any inconvenience our construction efforts may cause, as well as the occasional atmospheric disruption.”

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/the-great-achievement-of-watchmen-is-in-showing-how-black-americans-shape-history

IIRC Trieu also produces American Hero Story so that seems like a pretty big hint

have we talked at all about how clever it is that dr. manhattan - a person who spans time and place - is half-jewish? a flux identity on two levels - jewishness as 'white passing' itself - both as a fact of reality and a hysterical 'truth' white supremacists fear vis-a-vis unseeable alien contamination, and half-jewishness itself as a sometimes tolerated sometimes oppressed condition that (on his father's side) also puts him in ambiguous relationship to the traditional jewish community itself. an insider/outsider. and then that he then lives as a black man for a decade - simultaneously challenging + reaffirming the shared + echoed narratives between the black + jewish communities. was his background as a holocaust refugee invented for the show? (sorry if this was discussed more upthread i sorta had to skip through a lot of the thread while i was catching up on episodes). one thing that does a little bit annoy me about the show is that for as great as it looks and how savvy a lot of these ideas about identity + race are they're still v much "comic book" ideas not really unpacked or deeper on a level beyond signifying their awareness w/ these discourses. (i mean what do i expect from a tv show really idk.)

was his background as a holocaust refugee invented for the show?

I think it was, IIRC the comic only was one short scene with him, where we find out he was a watchmaker, and it's kinda implied he might be an European immigrant, but it's not confirmed. It's actually Veidt whose parents are said to have come to the USA in 1939, which would imply they were fleeing the Nazis, but again it's not confirmed. The movie made that implication explicit, stating that they were indeed refugees, but the series is clearly in the same continuity with the comic, as there's no squids in the film. (I actually liked the change the movie made to Veidt's plan, it made more sense than the whole ludicrous "fake giant squid with a psychic's brain" thing, which I always found to be the weakest part of Moore's plot.)

Going to do some sic bot shit

P sure it is not even really implied that doc Manhattan's dad was even an immigrant in watchmen? The "before watchmen" comics from 2012 have Manhattan being the son of a Jewish refugee from nazi germany

My copy of watchmen is thousands of miles away in my childhood bedroom so I cant check it tho

Long, interesting (to me) article on the series wrapping up: https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/watchmen-damon-lindelof-behind-the-scenes-1203436108/

“What I’ve learned over time is you need to know the answers to the mysteries,” says Lindelof. “If you don’t know those, you’re lost.”

You forgot to capitalize the L, Damon.

P sure it is not even really implied that doc Manhattan's dad was even an immigrant in watchmen?

ok, I was 99% sure Veidt’s sign on Europa said “help me daughter” and I think they’re about to make that clear

oh shit I was actually right

Ha ha no lube man

I didn’t notice on other episodes, but gr80’s friend Cord had an executive story editor role on this one? At least, pretty sure it’s the same guy

Not so sure about that ending.

"the refrigerated vault with all your vials of cum..."

Why did Veidt have a big production team for his crumby VHS confession to Redford.

idk how I felt about this ep. the Cavalry being used as puppets kinda defanged a lot of that conflict.

it was the ending they deserved. despite their plan and all their work, they were still outmaneuvered by someone else. (a minority no less)

tho, Lady Trieu should have hired whoever made that phone booth.

They were and weren’t? The kavalry were always going to be a tool for actual power, and seeing the actual power get blasted was kind of nice, considering how well the supposedly nice widow convincingly turned into a smug racist

she's still upset about dying on the Titanic

The frozen squid incident reminds me of a friend who was adapting a chain’s generic architectural blueprints for their store to be built in an upper midwest location. They gave him shit for a bunch of roof changes and he had to explain, to his irritation, that if the location got three inches of snow or hail of note it’d be completely demolished. People south of true winter don’t get how to build a roof.

This def played more like a S1 finale than a series finale to me

Completely

I thought it was satisfying but not amazing. But overall better than Leftovers' first season, which has me hoping he'll return to it to see where it can go.

And very much like Leftovers S1, the standout episodes were the ones that prized one character's perspective.

Lady Trieu had all the best zingers

cord j was executive story editor throughout and i think co-wrote the hooded justice ep

https://www.hbo.com/content/dam/hbodata/series/watchmen/peteypedia/09/memo-dale-petey.pdf

Good thing systemic racism is actually just a room of thirty or so klanspeople that can be blasted with lasers.

yeah it was weird when they said racism was solved at the end.

This was glorious. Lindelof is saying to Alan Sepinwall that he is probably not going to make a second season. Every idea got poured into this one.

I would put money on him doing another season in a few years.

When Angela picked up the egg, I turned to my wife and said, "This show will cut to black just as her foot reaches the water." I guess anyone could have and probably did guess that, but come on, prestige TV.

lol Lindeloff basically admitted that he was replicating the ending of Inception

The document announcing Petey's termination also mentions that Laurie is being debriefed in a secret location and that no agents should talk about any conspiracy theories they might hear.

speaking of predicting things right before they happen, I exclaimed "he totally got liquefied in there!" right before Trieu opened the chamber. predictable but very satisfying.

I am pretty disappointed after loving most of the show (and ignoring some truly dumb stuff).

I felt the final episode ignored one of the show's major themes (America's systemic racism and oppression of African-Americans and the resulting damage and reaction to it). In the final episode, however, Angela was largely sidelined from the action, they largely denied Will Reeves his victory speech, and the world is saved mostly by a bunch of white folks.

Angela's lack of agency did bother me. Seeing what they could do with her post-egg is the main reason I'd like to see them do another season.

If this really was the series finale, it might have actually been more satisfying to see her toss the egg out and opt not to take on that power.

going back over the eps, I'd rank 'em something like

6 > 8 > 3 > 1 > 7 > 5 > 2 > 9 > 4

stuff I didn't like:

Game Warden turning out to be Veidt's fake adversary
whole 7th Kavalry/Cyclops thing kind of toothless
Lady Trieu just a mad scientist
Laurie suddenly deciding that Veidt needs to be arrested
Angela and Will are totally cool because betraying Cal to Trieu was Dr. M's idea
opening cum scene
Why does Angela want Dr. M's powers? Seems like they kind of suck.

I liked the Game Warden stuff and the opening scene, and having lived Will's memories I can understand her not wanting to be at odds with him, but the rest I more or less agree with

Looking Glass repeatedly vomiting Laurie-style after being teleported A+

I did like Will's line about "considering what he could do...he could have done more."

I hope Tuomas is happy with the explicit explanation about Veidt's automated squid dispensing system (with randomizing algorithm).

No one has mentioned Jane Crawford yelling "Just do it" as a callback to Rorschach's final words. She was a redhead too.