Damon Lindelof's Watchmen

With Miller, it's kinda complicated, because the movies have only used minor elements and characters from his comics...

There has also been a straight-up (panel by panel, line by line) animated adaptation of DKR; I wonder if Miller participated financially in that.

The situation with Miller and Dark Knight - working on a corporately-owned character that he didn't create - is very different from the Watchmen scenario. My understanding is that, with DC in particular, most 'financial participation' stems from usage of characters the writer and artists created (and can unambiguously prove they created), rather than from the use of storylines, images etc. Miller may have had sufficient clout to be the exception to this, I dunno - I wonder if Darwyn Cooke got anything out of the Last Frontier animation...

I’m really not suggesting it’s 1:1, or that screwing artists is a grand industry tradition to be celebrated. I mean hell we haven’t even started on Kirby..,

I mean, I agree that Miller's Dark Knight Returns was definitely one of the things that got the Burton Batman movie underway, but my suspicion is that if you went back and watched the film now it wouldn't feel that similar - tonally or aesthetically - to the DKR comics (if anything, it's closer in spirit to the Englehart/Rogers Batman comics).

Funnily enough, Burton actually cites The Killing Joke as the biggest comics influence on his Batman

I was gonna say...

It’s June 24, 2011. I’m in a movie theater, watching Cars 2. In 10 minutes, I will spill a can of baked beans pic.twitter.com/rL7hvOUrm0

— Maya Angelou Bega (@killakow) December 11, 2019

my suspicion is that if you went back and watched the film now it wouldn't feel that similar - tonally or aesthetically - to the DKR comics (if anything, it's closer in spirit to the Englehart/Rogers Batman comics).

― Ward Fowler, Thursday, December 12, 2019

it didn't then. it's also not very good.

but batman was a moribund, corny comic book character and comic book movies weren't happening. TDKR revived the franchise and made batman viable.

I mean hell we haven’t even started on Kirby..,

not since Thursday, December 12, 2019 11:57 AM (yesterday)

DC started crediting the co-creator of Batman (the one who wrote the stories, designed the costume, created the secret identity Bruce Wayne, made him a detective, and changed the name to "Batman"), who also created the Batmobile, the Batcave, Gotham City, Catwoman, The Riddler and the giant penny & the robot T-Rex in the Batcave, and co-created Robin, The Joker, Clayface, Bat-Girl, The Penguin, the Scarecrow, Bat-Mite, Two-Face/ Harvey Dent and Ace the Bat-Hound [checks watch] in October 2015, forty-one years after he died. It's maniacal to think that Frank Miller would have been paid for "Martha Wayne wears a pearl necklace when she dies."

sic don't be obtuse. miller restored cultural currency to some corny old underwear and tights kid stuff. without TDKR, no warner movie franchise. (which again, i can't say they've made a good batmovie yet, but they sure have made a pile of dough.)

again, the only reason i mention miller in this context is that in DC's long history of not giving creators their due, it's ironic that the single most accomplished filmed entertainment based on any DC property is based on the work of the single creator they've screwed most vigorously.

i honestly can't think of another that I could recommend without qualification. mmmaybe the Adam West series on its own camp merits, mmmaybe Superman II? (idk i haven't seen it since it was in theaters)

miller restored cultural currency to some corny old underwear and tights kid stuff. without TDKR, no warner movie franchise.

this is not really accurate. read the wiki entry on the long, tangled development of the film's development. What changed Warner Bros mind about the movie was the success of Beetlejuice.

I mean, TDKR and the Killing Joke did play a part, but there were a lot of threads that came together, including Uslan's original intention to get a "dark", non-campy version on-screen going as far back as the late 70s.

and again Miller was working on an existing property, he didn't "create" the raw material that led to the movie.

batman was a moribund, corny comic book character and comic book movies weren't happening

Batman had been successively decornified under the Gropewill Ambassador c. ...1965?, and Neal Adams and Frank Robbins from 1968/9, and as Ward notes, the rest of the modern-as-of-1986 elements were mixed in by Englehart & Rogers (and Dinosaur Man) in 1977. The property was so far from moribund that at the time of The Dark Knight it was several years into having a third monthly (which may have been the first time any DC property had done this?), as well as specials, miniseries, and Baxter reprint projects. The first DC-property "graphic novel" was a Batman project, commissioned before Dark Knight (Bingham or Barr or both have spoken of realising, to ther dismay, how much further they could have been going with their work when Returns dropped).

As for comic-book movies recently before Dark Knight, if we start counting with DC superheroes as the baseline:
Superman (1978)
Superman II (1980)
Heavy Metal (1981)
Swamp Thing (1982) [the first issue of the series that ended up getting Alan Moore his first American gig had a photo tie-in cover!]
Lucky Luke 3 [4 if you count live action] (1983)
Superman III (1983)
Supergirl (1984)
Asterix 4 (1985)
Red Sonja (1985) [name based on Howard, but the character was Houseroy's aiui]
Asterix 5 (1986)

plus three Nicholas Hammond Spider-Mens outside the US, When The Wind Blows in 1986, and Marvel had Howard The Duck and the first Punisher between Dark Knight and the Burton Batman.

anyhoo the really crazy thing is, I honestly can’t think of another filmed entertainment based on a (legally if not morally) DC property that is unambiguously, no excuses, straight up Good

you're right that the first Burton Batman is terrible, but I finally saw Returns a year ago and it might be extremely weird but it's definitely great, and (like Ed Wood) shows how much more effective Burton's obsessions are when they get stapled to a screenwriter with their own perspective. every episode of the '60s TV Batman might not be good, but many are, and the movie is. prepared to believe that "The Donner Cut" of Superman II might be unambiguously good as long as "all-ages / family movie" isn't an excuse.

(if animation counts, The Lego Batman Movie is good, and Teen Titans Go! To The Movies is good, so I suspect the TV show is too. Mask Of The Phantasm gets repped hard by ppl who've seen it.)

The second Nolan movie is Good (though I understand that's a somewhat controversial p.o.v. on here?)

I enjoyed it at the time but I would never revisit any of those by choice tbh

I finally saw Returns a year ago and it might be extremely weird but it's definitely great, and (like Ed Wood) shows how much more effective Burton's obsessions are when they get stapled to a screenwriter with their own perspective

super otm

xpost!

sic don't be obtuse.

(twenty-eight minutes ago)

:D that we both came up with Adam West and Supes II, without wanting to see the latter

I'm definitely saying that Bill Finger got screwed even harder than Moore! But by Kane's dad as well as DC.

like Ward & Shakey, I don't see anything of Miller in Batman (1989) beyond the pearls, and I don't believe the character had major broad-pop-culture currency based on Dark Knight before the movie's onslaught of branding. (This may be Australian/age bias: iirc the 60s Batman had recently started repeating as after-school TV, after four or five (?) years off the schedule)

Shakey notes Uslan's primacy - note that he still gets EP credit on the Nolan flicks and Lego Batman! that's some deal he must have made 40 years ago.

i kiss you!

lol i'm not saying they weren't making them, but that's a pretty long list of commercial failures, "kid stuff," and an excuse for a sound, solid pat benatar track (with a couple of exceptions to prove the rule).

not so sure about Batman Returns but in fairness i'm almost entirely allergic to tim burton. totally agree The Lego Batman Movie is the only bat-based feature film i could imagine watching twice.

speaking of screwing moore over, wish swamp thing could get the HBO treatment.

def agree that Burton's first Batman movie sucks, and the second one is leagues better

The second Nolan movie is Good (though I understand that's a somewhat controversial p.o.v. on here?)

― Inapt Authority (morrisp), Thursday, December 12, 2019

respectfully disagree. at best it looks Good standing next to the other Nolan batmans.

full disclosure: he's given us some truly inspired visuals over the years, but I'm not convinced Nolan has ever made a Good movie. he's more interested in puzzles than stories. nothing breathes.

wish swamp thing could get the HBO treatment.

isn't there already some Arrowverse version happening...?

isn't there already some Arrowverse version happening...?

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 12, 2019

already canceled, apparently due to miscalculation of North Carolina production rebates.

https://www.cbr.com/swamp-thing-cancellation-north-carolina-accounting-error/

haven't found what i've seen of the arrowverse compelling so I've avoided the abbreviated season that was released bc i'd rather pretend it doesn't exist than see it suck.

...

btw this is fun. ty guys xoxoxo

sound, solid

😏

thought the first Batnolan sucked so hard that I had no interest in seeing another. but a friend was in town from overseas and it was showing in IMAX on the largest cinema screen in the world and he really really wanted to see it so I went, and it was so gross I had no interest in seeing any other Nolan at all (enjoyed Memento on VHS bitd)

Memento is good

didn't mind the dark knight in the imax but caught a bit of it on telly years later and thought it was a bit shit. the first nolan batman movie is utter dross, as is the third one

don't mind the first burton batman.

Partyman, Partyman
Rock a party like nobody can
Rules and regulations, no place in this nation
Partyman, Partyman

Memento is good, the first Nolan Batman is good (I like it more than the 2nd one tbh), the Prestige is good. That's about it though. Agree he is more interested in puzzles than films (or people).

Prince's Batman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Burton's Batman

I watched part of the recent Swamp Thing television series and it was, for the most part, an adaptation of the Moore run. Should have used more of the visual direction of Bissette/Totleben, though

The first Burton movie is so weird -- it somehow resists your (or, well, my) efforts to take any kind of pleasure in watching it. Everything feels "overdetermined" in some strange way, leaving no room for the viewer... it's like an elaborate construction rather than a "movie." Hard to explain, but I feel that way whenever I catch some of it on the tube.

(I think I'm also fairly "allergic" to Tim Burton, though, to use Larry's terminology.)

Batman's fight sequences are quite bad

I like the movie though

Burton doesn't know how to direct action

kinda laughed when he flattened a baddie with the slowest, least powerful kick known to mankind

what the first nolan batman lacks in character interest or thrilling action it makes up for with sheer runtime and reminders that btw while ur out do not forget to OVERCOME UR FEAR

most interesting part of the first burton movie is counting how many different angles they can use to shoot the same set

mh is that a... a muted endorsement of SWAMP THING? or more like "well, they kinda tried for it within budget/content constraints but it doesn't look that good and misses the vibe and then terminates abruptly"?

(I think I'm also fairly "allergic" to Tim Burton, though, to use Larry's terminology.)

― Inapt Authority (morrisp), Thursday, December 12, 2019

i find that expression helpful for cases of "i understand and acknowledge that many people really enjoy this stuff but it just does not work for me and that's okay."

i love that this ended up being another conversation about batman movies. anyway, burton doesn't know how to direct action, agreed, but the action in batman returns is still cleaner and more effective than any fistfight nolan directs in batman begins or the dark knight

Tbf the main thread topic just gets us annoyed at each other

Nolan's fight scenes are hard to follow but I don't think that's true - the bit where he falls into the ice during training, for ex, is well done

xps

my memory of the fight scenes in the first nolan batman are all elbows being thrown in tight, moving close-up in near dark.

yep, it's all limbs

just awful

He's good with vehicles, bad with humans

Other ppl have pointed out his love of 35mm does not help

i really like Batman Begins, The Dark Knight is good but also has diminishing returns, and it gets worse as it goes along. Dark Knight Rises is dreadful. First Burton Batman is one that I saw far too many times for such a mediocre film. Batman Returns is better in every way but I'm not really super into it either.

no one ever talks about the Schumacher Batman films because the second one was such a joke but Batman Forever was HUGE at the time, it hit at exactly the right moment with that cast and especially that soundtrack.

yeah the soundtrack largely boosted the excitement for the movie. I pretty regularly heard "Smash It Up" and "Hold Me, Thrill Me, Kiss Me, Kill Me" on rock radio, and obviously...."Kiss from a Rose".

it was a time when people were excited about a film that could land both Chris O'Donnell AND Jim Carrey.

apparently the Doom Patrol show is largely based on the Morrison run

never gonna watch it, but fair play I suppose

https://live.staticflickr.com/864/41083398414_100f1967eb_b.jpg

mh is that a... a muted endorsement of SWAMP THING

I stopped watching because it was boring