Damon Lindelof's Watchmen

imo it'd be useful to have a Moore copyright/spirit of the contract/litigation or lack thereof thread separate from the goofy superhero tv show thread

not true to the source material or fair to the original author is among the most unconvincing arguments against a piece of media i can imagine. who gives a fuck if alan moore's feeling are hurt?

It's not about 'feelings', it's about respecting the wishes of a creator whose work you've admired and enjoyed over the years, and about recognising that certain corporate products are too tainted to consume or support. Comics creators have, by and large, been horribly horribly screwed over, more than people involved in other creative industries, so it doesn't seem that big an ask to not engage with this particular product, amongst all the many wonderful products available in the market today, lots of them produced with the enthusiastic participation/co-operation of their original creators.

But obviously if you love the logic of the market over the work of flesh and blood artists and writers - if you feel so alienated from the struggles of the people who make the art you enjoy that you don't give a shit that they've been denied credit or income - then 'feel' free to not give a fuck.

As for Charlton Comics, they haven't existed in any form for more than 30 years, the company was known to pay abysmal rates, retain copyright AND destroy all the original artwork - and if people didn't know about the origins of the Watchmen project then I'm pretty sure nobody would spot the connection based on a reading of the comics themselves.

actually i think asking someone not to watch a television show that is quite good out of respect to alan moore is a big ask with no clear advantages or moral stakes

not true to the source material or fair to the original author

these aren't equivalent arguments, and 'fair to the original author' is putting it mildly when there's a strong case to be made that his work was stolen from him through deliberate deception

his work was stolen from him through deliberate deception

aiui he expected that watchmen would go out of print and the rights would revert to him but it was so successful that DC kept it in print and the rights never reverted. am i missing something?

yes

we discussed the specifics of that contract, and why that was a reasonable expectation for him to have at that time, upthread

xpost

Well I think there is a moral stake in play - the moral rights of artists - but yes, all boycotts are self-denying in a way that makes the boycotter feel good about themselves. That's not a good enough argument to oppose the idea of boycotts, though, merely a slightly annoying/self-aggrandising side-effect.

I think it's a reasonable stance to want the spirit of contracts to be followed and empathizing with Moore's stance makes sense, as does avoiding any tainted work

On the other hand, our system doesn't work that way and lawsuits are the only way to communicate with any business over a certain size, especially anything publicly held. it's like wrestling a pig -- if you don't want to eventually end up covered in shit, you never deal with a corporation. Moore's dealt with the pigs a handful of time and for the most part, refuses to wrestle.

It's by no means a situation unique to comics, and one that I end up thinking about often. there are no ethical publicly-held companies that follow the spirit of any agreement, possibly few that even follow the letter of contracts, because you can't promoted to a decision-making level without having "shareholder value" programmed into your brain as your primary objective

I think it's a moral and admirable stance to be obstinate and insist things happen according to the spirit of agreements and refuse to deal otherwise, but doing so is living on your own terms

It's the same reason people like Moore refuse to vote in elections. And apparently, with the current one being the exception to the rule, he's also that guy

People boycotting the show should probably also stop listening to songs with breakbeats.

At least Moore is getting paid from the comic continuing to sell, right?

no, he chose to forfeit all his royalties to dave gibbons years ago

"Jean Smart is 68" she looks AMAZING.

At least Moore is getting paid from the comic continuing to sell, right?

lmao

that money is tainted by worship of Mammon and he currently has not found the correct incantation to purify it imo

"aiui he expected that watchmen would go out of print and the rights would revert to him but it was so successful that DC kept it in print and the rights never reverted. am i missing something?"

I don't think so. And while I'm sympathetic to Moore's complaint he was short sighted if he thought this was going to go out of print and revert to him. Maybe it was more naive times but I can't think of any good reason why he'd expect that. And yes the Charlton Comics characters are where things originated. I think there's enough murk in here for me to not feel that bad about this. I'd feel worse if the show were terrible but it's not.

I can't think of any good reason why he'd expect that

these perfectly reasonable expectations and their origins are discussed in detail upthread

but who cares too complicated omg did you see Lindelof made Hooded Justice black etc

dave gibbons must be living well

the hooded justice ep was as good or better than any other content i've read in the watchmen universe including the original moore comic

And while I'm sympathetic to Moore's complaint he was short sighted if he thought this was going to go out of print and revert to him.

i've been torrenting it, so at least i'm stealing from everyone equally

dave gibbons must be living well

i've been torrenting it, so at least i'm stealing from everyone equally

but who cares too complicated omg did you see Lindelof made Hooded Justice black etc

stuff like this does not enhance your argument

as mentioned I have also been torrenting it lol

yeah i mean this show is honestly kind of hokey and not as good as the leftovers but the hooded justice ep was very good

if nothing else, the Hooded Justice retcon is very much in the spirit of Moore's revisionist '80s work

the hooded justice ep was as good or better than any other content i've read in the watchmen universe including the original moore comic

― Mordy, Wednesday, December 11, 2019 9:40 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Agreed tbh

it's probably better than Leftovers s1 was, tbh

if they do opt for a second season w/ Lindelof on board (they will imo), expect an even more self-reflexive approach thanks to Lindelof obsessing over every recap and comment thread (including quite plausibly this one)

just characters apologizing to Alan Moore then?

Hen fap

Awesome we're getting a hen fap episode now it's itt

if nothing else, the Hooded Justice retcon is very much in the spirit of Moore's revisionist '80s work

if they do opt for a second season w/ Lindelof on board (they will imo), expect an even more self-reflexive approach thanks to Lindelof obsessing over every recap and comment thread (including quite plausibly this one)

― Simon H., Wednesday, December 11, 2019 9:51 AM (twenty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Damon! Prometheus! I liked it!

lol

Well, you're the one who decided to criticise a plot point in a series you haven't seen. :)

― Tuomas, Wednesday, December 11, 2019 8:55 PM (yesterday)

I laughed at a fairly silly plot point in a series, and made an inference that the plot point & the silliness contradict the writer's own claims of his regard for the work of the writer at whom he also likes to personally shout "fuck you!" publicly, as an advertisement.

(nbd, no beef with Tuomas or unicorn, just citing to link to the next)

if nothing else, the Hooded Justice retcon is very much in the spirit of Moore's revisionist '80s work

― Number None, Thursday, December 12, 2019 4:45 AM (one hour ago)

One can see where this argument comes from, but it crumbles against two other things that come immediately to mind: Lindelof's assertion that they went to "Watchmen graduate school" or w/e, analysing and interpreting and bringing absolute respect to the original work, and the very plain fact that...

it ends up looking like a domino mask under the hood, good superhero look

― a u.s. government department (mh), Wednesday, December 11, 2019 11:21 AM (yesterday)

this is a regression from the deconstruction of iconography specifically essayed in Watchmen by both authors, cf Dollar Bill's death, Hollis' mask vs Dan's etc.

aiui he expected that watchmen would go out of print and the rights would revert to him but it was so successful that DC kept it in print and the rights never reverted. am i missing something?

― Mordy, Thursday, December 12, 2019 2:52 AM (three hours ago)

yes

we discussed the specifics of that contract, and why that was a reasonable expectation for him to have at that time, upthread

― Receive Your Simulated Fluids Before The End of The Year! (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, December 12, 2019 2:53 AM (three hours ago)

I don't think so. And while I'm sympathetic to Moore's complaint he was short sighted if he thought this was going to go out of print and revert to him. Maybe it was more naive times but I can't think of any good reason why he'd expect that. ...

― akm, Thursday, December 12, 2019 4:38 AM (one hour ago)

Again: if you have reason to think and not think these various things, please name any DC collected edition that had stayed in print for 33 years, prior to Watchmen. Please name any self-contained miniseries that DC had ever collected into book form at all before Watchmen. Please name one DC collection of anything that had stayed in print for 12 months, prior to Watchmen. Please name one single DC paperback collection at all, published at any time earlier than Watchmen #11, let alone before Moore and Gibbons signed the contract in 1985.

Mordy is also missing the repeated legal AND personal AND professional fuckings-over DC and Warner Brothers have made to Moore between 1988 and 2018, several of them Watchmen-related, an incomplete list of which is also taken from the top of my head there.

(Another one which just popped: the double-width Promethea axed when Dunbier was fired, underscoring how many other artists also get fucked over each time that DC takes these pointless, self-sabotaging swipes at the guy who is their most consistent-selling author even when he won't work for them.)

Mordy also doesn't seem to explain why DC offered to make a deal for sequels and derivative works when Nelson joined?

We don't gotta be captain Save-a-DC just cos we guiltily like the show

People boycotting the show should probably also stop listening to songs with breakbeats.

any particular people?

Look, I can't say that this thread isn't educational. I honestly didn't know that Gregory Coleman was the main founder of The Winstons, and that seven seconds of his contribution to the arrangement of their reinterpretation of Charlton Comics' "Brother Amen" character was deemed specifically distinct enough that he owned 50% of the publishing on the hymn itself, and he specifically assigned custody of it to Metromedia for 12 months after the first pressing of the 7". I also didn't know that Straight Outta Compton was released under the title "Amen," and advertised as being based on the work of Gregory Coleman. I furthermore didn't know that We Are I.E. was released under the title "Amen," and advertised as being based on the work of Gregory Coleman. I additionally didn't know that Watch Me Now was released under the title "Amen," and advertised as being based on the work of Gregory Coleman. I also didn't know that Casualties Of War was released under the title "Amen," or that Rakim spent months and months going to the press and starting his own podcast with an actual scab and aspiring union buster to talk each week about how it was based on the work of Gregory Coleman, when his record label was barred from using Gregory Coleman's name to promote the record. I confess that I wasn't cognisant that what I thought was Atlantis (I Need You) was really called "Amen," and that LTJ Bukem spent months and months going to the press and that he started his own podcast with an actual scab and aspiring union buster to talk weekly about how it was based on the work of Gregory Coleman, when his record label was barred from using Gregory Coleman's name to promote the record. Hadn't been aware, either, that the song I know as Original Nuttah was released under the title "Amen," not "Original Nuttah," and that Shy FX spent months and months going to the press and running his own podcast with an actual scab and aspiring union buster to talk once a week about how it was based on the work of Gregory Coleman, when his record label was barred from using Gregory Coleman's name to promote the record. Excited, though, to learn that the track I thought I loved called Super Sharp Shooter was actually released under the title "Amen," and that DJ Zinc spent months and months going to the press and hosting his own podcast with an actual scab and aspiring union buster to talk about how it was based on the work of Gregory Coleman, when his record label was barred from using Gregory Coleman's name to promote the record. Suppose it's not that surprising that a supposed "Piano Tune" was just a placeholder, and it was actually released under the title "Amen," but it's remarkable that Peshay still spent months and months talking to the press and on his own podcast (co-hosted with an actual scab and aspiring union buster) about how it was based on the work of Gregory Coleman, when his record label was barred from using Gregory Coleman's name to promote the record.

It's also pretty rad to learn that Richard Bruning designed the Metromedia logo as a teenager, and its use on records prior to "Color Him Father" was just while they were waiting for the band to form and to jam a b-side, and that every single record to ever sample that B-side used the exact same logo, as well as literally millions and millions of dollars of shitty merchandise that had nothing to do with the record using it, but that logo's the only piece of identifiable trade dress on the record, so therefore any wildly tenuous analogy that can be drawn, should be.

Also it's a pity that thinking it is extremely horrible and shitty and tragic that Gregory Coleman died homeless means that I've used up all my care points and am unable to think that anyone else has ever been poorly treated by a company :( :( but my hands are tied! :D :D

At least Moore is getting paid from the comic continuing to sell, right?

― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, December 12, 2019 4:28 AM (one hour ago)

Again, $4000 a year at the whim of a demonstrably bad marketer is less than $10,000,000, despite multiple assertions itt. And 15c a copy on a 1985 DC periodical contract is not the 80c a squarebound copy he would have signed with DC for circa 1989-93, and is very much not the 500c a copy he might have signed with Palmano Bennett for in 2005.

We don't gotta be captain Save-a-DC just cos we guiltily like the show

for sure, it's bemusing how the save-a-DC positions keep being "none of this ever happened, and if it did, which it couldn't have, it was the artist's fault for being born in 1953" rather than "DC is cool" or w/e

How many times has Alan Moore sued DC?

Jesus Christ, we get it.

Shh watching Riverdale guyz

How many times has Alan Moore sued DC?

three times as many as he's sued other publishers afaik

Um, wow.

The vast majority of artists working with large corporations for distribution are screwed by them, in a colorful variety of ways. Sure, there's a difference between this and sampling in that HBO is using the name recognition of Watchmen, but I'd argue that it's worse for Gregory Coleman or Clyde Stubblefield to have their work used as the foundation for thousands of other creative works without any royalties OR credit. It just feels extremely ineffective to put it on consumers to ignore the work.

Wont someone think of the poor consumers

captain Save-a-DC

Reminds me of that T-shirt:

https://www.badideatshirts.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/563ec8bf64dad5e3a29f40a8d9ea06a0/p/s/ps_0758_warn_a_brother.jpg

Blap blap
Dats da sound ofvda watchmen

wonder how much Frank Miller gets for all the Batman movies