Damon Lindelof's Watchmen

alan moore's ideas of american race and class relations are better than most people in the usa but still not amazing!

sic this show is knocking race stuff out of the park surprisingly so I wouldn't diss it until you actually see it.

He's not going to see it.

Just complain about it like a boor.

this series respects the law of what was laid down on the page, but not the spirit as the author perceived it, so it will be shrugged off as litigation is below us

Shaquille O'Neal's turn as Robert Redford is awe inspiring

I was referring to Lindelof's claims of nonpareil respect for the text generally, not to race specifically

p sure I have not lodged any complaints itt

that will be noted in today's minutes

does anyone know how veidt is getting books to read on europa is really my only outstanding question atm

they're catapulted to him

truly a nuanced and thoughtful treatment of race relations that honours the original text

― insecurity bear (sic), 11. joulukuuta 2019 3:08

Regardless of how one feels about Alan Moore's creator rights, this is kinda unfair, because the original text doesn't really address race relations or racism much, whereas those issues have been front and center in the series. And as silly as it may sound when described here, the Hooded Justice retcon does actually work, and the episode centering on him *is* a nuanced and thoughtful treatment of race relations that honours the original text. Like I said above, HJ is the only character from the original comic whose inclusion here truly works with the themes of the series, with all the others is more like "I guess we gotta have them too", which apparently is why Lindelöf included them, based on the quote above.

One issue that also kinda bugs me about wanting to include the original characters, while also setting the series in 2019, is their age. With Hooded Justice they kinda try to handwave him being over 100 years by hinting he has some kind of limited super strength and endurance, but with the others there's not even that excuse. According to their canonical birth dates, Laurie is supposed to be 70 in 2019 and Ozymandias 80, yet they don't look that way, and Laurie is still working as an active FBI agent. And I'm gonna bet that if Dan/Nite Owl II appears in the finale, he's not gonna be played by a 74-year-old actor, which would be his canonical age in 2019.

Well, Jean Smart is 68 and Jeremy Irons is 71 so not that far off

And I'm sure Ozymandias has some youthifying tech or whatever

Irons certainly looks 80.

Regardless of how one feels about Alan Moore's creator rights, this is kinda unfair, because the original text doesn't really address race relations or racism much

dammit Neanderthal why have you not distributed the minutes

Sad LOLS at trying to honour the idea of a creator's rights as being 'boorish'.

Regardless of how one feels about Alan Moore's creator rights, this is kinda unfair, because the original text doesn't really address race relations or racism much

dammit Neanderthal why have you not distributed the minutes

― insecurity bear (sic), 11. joulukuuta 2019 11:20

Well, you're the one who decided to criticise a plot point in a series you haven't seen. :) Personally I'm not unsympathetic to the creator rights argument, and I've refused to buy or read any of the prequel and sequel comics, but since I had a HBO subscription anyway and I was intrigued byt the premise of the series, I decided to be scab and try it out... And it has turned out to be better than I could've ever imagined, tho I still think it would've been better if Lindelöf had written an original alternate history series about race relations and racism (which, from what I've heard, was his original intention) without any Watchmen elements at all.

Irons certainly looks 80.

irons looks great imo, if 30 years from now i look half as fit naked as he does i'll be delighted

I still think it would've been better if Lindelöf had written an original alternate history series about race relations and racism (which, from what I've heard, was his original intention) without any Watchmen elements at all.

yeah i agree with this - the show is really good but i'd feel a lot less queasy about it if its origins weren't so tainted

it's a fair objection but tbh without the aid of pre-existing IP that show would never have been made

What does Charlton Comics have to say about source material?

imo it'd be useful to have a Moore copyright/spirit of the contract/litigation or lack thereof thread separate from the goofy superhero tv show thread

not true to the source material or fair to the original author is among the most unconvincing arguments against a piece of media i can imagine. who gives a fuck if alan moore's feeling are hurt?

It's not about 'feelings', it's about respecting the wishes of a creator whose work you've admired and enjoyed over the years, and about recognising that certain corporate products are too tainted to consume or support. Comics creators have, by and large, been horribly horribly screwed over, more than people involved in other creative industries, so it doesn't seem that big an ask to not engage with this particular product, amongst all the many wonderful products available in the market today, lots of them produced with the enthusiastic participation/co-operation of their original creators.

But obviously if you love the logic of the market over the work of flesh and blood artists and writers - if you feel so alienated from the struggles of the people who make the art you enjoy that you don't give a shit that they've been denied credit or income - then 'feel' free to not give a fuck.

As for Charlton Comics, they haven't existed in any form for more than 30 years, the company was known to pay abysmal rates, retain copyright AND destroy all the original artwork - and if people didn't know about the origins of the Watchmen project then I'm pretty sure nobody would spot the connection based on a reading of the comics themselves.

actually i think asking someone not to watch a television show that is quite good out of respect to alan moore is a big ask with no clear advantages or moral stakes

not true to the source material or fair to the original author

these aren't equivalent arguments, and 'fair to the original author' is putting it mildly when there's a strong case to be made that his work was stolen from him through deliberate deception

his work was stolen from him through deliberate deception

aiui he expected that watchmen would go out of print and the rights would revert to him but it was so successful that DC kept it in print and the rights never reverted. am i missing something?

yes

we discussed the specifics of that contract, and why that was a reasonable expectation for him to have at that time, upthread

xpost

Well I think there is a moral stake in play - the moral rights of artists - but yes, all boycotts are self-denying in a way that makes the boycotter feel good about themselves. That's not a good enough argument to oppose the idea of boycotts, though, merely a slightly annoying/self-aggrandising side-effect.

I think it's a reasonable stance to want the spirit of contracts to be followed and empathizing with Moore's stance makes sense, as does avoiding any tainted work

On the other hand, our system doesn't work that way and lawsuits are the only way to communicate with any business over a certain size, especially anything publicly held. it's like wrestling a pig -- if you don't want to eventually end up covered in shit, you never deal with a corporation. Moore's dealt with the pigs a handful of time and for the most part, refuses to wrestle.

It's by no means a situation unique to comics, and one that I end up thinking about often. there are no ethical publicly-held companies that follow the spirit of any agreement, possibly few that even follow the letter of contracts, because you can't promoted to a decision-making level without having "shareholder value" programmed into your brain as your primary objective

I think it's a moral and admirable stance to be obstinate and insist things happen according to the spirit of agreements and refuse to deal otherwise, but doing so is living on your own terms

It's the same reason people like Moore refuse to vote in elections. And apparently, with the current one being the exception to the rule, he's also that guy

People boycotting the show should probably also stop listening to songs with breakbeats.

At least Moore is getting paid from the comic continuing to sell, right?

no, he chose to forfeit all his royalties to dave gibbons years ago

"Jean Smart is 68" she looks AMAZING.

At least Moore is getting paid from the comic continuing to sell, right?

lmao

that money is tainted by worship of Mammon and he currently has not found the correct incantation to purify it imo

"aiui he expected that watchmen would go out of print and the rights would revert to him but it was so successful that DC kept it in print and the rights never reverted. am i missing something?"

I don't think so. And while I'm sympathetic to Moore's complaint he was short sighted if he thought this was going to go out of print and revert to him. Maybe it was more naive times but I can't think of any good reason why he'd expect that. And yes the Charlton Comics characters are where things originated. I think there's enough murk in here for me to not feel that bad about this. I'd feel worse if the show were terrible but it's not.

I can't think of any good reason why he'd expect that

these perfectly reasonable expectations and their origins are discussed in detail upthread

but who cares too complicated omg did you see Lindelof made Hooded Justice black etc

dave gibbons must be living well

the hooded justice ep was as good or better than any other content i've read in the watchmen universe including the original moore comic

And while I'm sympathetic to Moore's complaint he was short sighted if he thought this was going to go out of print and revert to him.

i've been torrenting it, so at least i'm stealing from everyone equally

dave gibbons must be living well

i've been torrenting it, so at least i'm stealing from everyone equally

but who cares too complicated omg did you see Lindelof made Hooded Justice black etc

stuff like this does not enhance your argument

as mentioned I have also been torrenting it lol

yeah i mean this show is honestly kind of hokey and not as good as the leftovers but the hooded justice ep was very good

if nothing else, the Hooded Justice retcon is very much in the spirit of Moore's revisionist '80s work

the hooded justice ep was as good or better than any other content i've read in the watchmen universe including the original moore comic

― Mordy, Wednesday, December 11, 2019 9:40 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Agreed tbh

it's probably better than Leftovers s1 was, tbh