Damon Lindelof's Watchmen

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i have seen it suggested that the tinting of the poster is a hint

John's moral system is kind of fucked from our perspective due to the fact he's not time traveling, he's experiencing time non-linearly. I was alluding to that with the idea that a future version of Angela or their son tells him he did the right thing. He's making decisions with near-complete knowledge -- or more accurately from our perspective, just doing things that seem predetermined. It's beyond our perception to understand what kind of agency he has. It doesn't look like our idea of agency.

He's doing things that should require a new morality, but his very presence disrupts the ability for normal human morals or causality to work. His flat affect isn't necessarily even a lack of emotion, but a result of his sense of perspective. He's resigned to getting sucked up by the tachyon gun because he's experienced it -- is there an alternate world where he's more actively fighting against that possibility? No, because it's perceived that it's already happened.

It's worth noting that tachyon's are the one thing that can hinder his "future sense"; Veidt used them in the comic so he wouldn't know about squid in advance, and tachyons blinding him was mentioned again in this episode by Veidt, which might be another hint that Veidt is actually behind Keene and the Kavalry... He knows about Jon's weakness, and whatever he has planned requires that Jon can't foresee it and tell Angela about it.

Jon did say that he would never transfer his powers to someone without their consent, and can a 10 year old really consent to something like that?

Just working with what we know so far...

Cal only used his Dr. M powers when protective instincts kicked in, as they did on the White Night
That same night Topher heard the attackers and hid his sisters
Topher can apparently levitate things. He built a replica of Dr. M's martian mansion.
He also had that exchange with Angela about hitting the kid "because you wanted to"
Cal wanted his family to see him walking on water. This will be important for some reason in the future.

So either Cal transferred his powers to Topher without knowing he was doing it, or as part of his protective instict or..
Topher has some superpowers of his own.

It's worth noting that tachyon's are the one thing that can hinder his "future sense"; Veidt used them in the comic so he wouldn't know about squid in advance, and tachyons blinding him was mentioned again in this episode by Veidt, which might be another hint that Veidt is actually behind Keene and the Kavalry... He knows about Jon's weakness, and whatever he has planned requires that Jon can't foresee it and tell Angela about it.

This is what I was talking about above. I could see Veidt's progression as: I am the smartest man on the planet, only I can save humanity>>>I saved humanity, why are you so ungrateful>>>Sure, I would love to go to a utopia where I can be worshiped as a god>>>Being worshiped by passive clones with limited agency sucks>>>I need Dr. Manhattan's powers to become a god and be truly worshiped.

Cal wanted his family to see him walking on water. This will be important for some reason in the future.

Maybe Cal-Manhattan was seeding a clone in the pool to come back as nu-Cal.

i seeded a clone in the pool once when i was five and got banned from the leisure centre

couple of random thoughts here...

• Veidt has never sought personal world domination or (obv) the adulation of millions
• Veidt is not a white supremacist -- Rorschach thinks of him as a hippie liberal
• Veidt is crushed to find that, having by all accounts saved the world from assured nuclear destruction, people remain shitty
• Trieu's disappointment with Nostalgia follows the same course
• Makes sense they'd work together, and there's already plenty of evidence for that
• But neither of them seem to be seeking personal glory or "worship"
• Pretty sure Topher ain't levitate shit. I'm not going back and screencapping but iirc the levitation was a feature of the manhattan-tech legos... the more interesting question is why he was building a model of the manor house

so they have manhattan-tech legos but no internet?

Yeah, I agree that scene with the building blocks didn't feel like the kid had any powers, he just had some special toys that are available in this world.

My theory above about Veidt being behind the attempt to steal Jon's power wasn't about him wanting to be worshipped, rather than him wanting to ensure his plan for utopia on Earth wouldn't steer off course. In the latest episode he was notably disappointed that humans are still building bombs, so with Doc Man's powers he could make sure they don't.

couple of random thoughts here...

• Veidt has never sought personal world domination or (obv) the adulation of millions
• Veidt is not a white supremacist -- Rorschach thinks of him as a hippie liberal
• Veidt is crushed to find that, having by all accounts saved the world from assured nuclear destruction, people remain shitty
• Trieu's disappointment with Nostalgia follows the same course
• Makes sense they'd work together, and there's already plenty of evidence for that
• But neither of them seem to be seeking personal glory or "worship"
• Pretty sure Topher ain't levitate shit. I'm not going back and screencapping but iirc the levitation was a feature of the manhattan-tech legos... the more interesting question is why he was building a model of the manor house

― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Tuesday, December 10, 2019 2:11 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I wouldn't argue much with these points, except to say that (a) Veidt has always been incredibly vane/narcissistic (you would have to be to do what he did); and (b) while Veidt might not agree with the 7th Kavalry, he might very well use them to get what he wanted.

Veidt turning out to be behind the 7th Kavalry seems too cute for what they're trying to accomplish in the is series, but who knows? could be right

the is= this

God I'd like Dr. Manhattan's powers to help with my spelling/typos.

Why change it? in the year 2367 this will be the correct spelling

I wouldn't argue much with these points, except to say that (a) Veidt has always been incredibly vane/narcissistic (you would have to be to do what he did); and (b) while Veidt might not agree with the 7th Kavalry, he might very well use them to get what he wanted.

― Mazzy Tsar (PBKR), Tuesday, December 10, 2019

(a) sure. he's always been clear about that himself lol. just sayin' "being worshipped" doesn't seem like his motivation.

(b) also sure.
• ~somehow~ 7K: learned of doc's location and identity; acquired knowledge of methods to move, confine, and disable him; acquired the knowledge, skills, and materiel to plan and construct extremely specialized tools to achieve those ends, presumably requiring more than a few watch batteries
• ~somehow~ trieu is aware of the 7K plan in advance

7k also had that video of veidt confessing his role in the squiddening to redford AND they had the teleportation technology with which veidt is very familiar.

what if these fuckers just raided one of his places while he's been away? maybe it's a jack ryan-style rogue senator/cia op

Reading some of these comments makes me realize how much I had forgotten already about the early episodes. Likewise, some of the unanswered questions/ theories make me feel like there are a couple of episodes missing in this thing. I get the sense a lot is going to be elided to get to the end.

7k also had that video of veidt confessing his role in the squiddening to redford AND they had the teleportation technology with which veidt is very familiar.

It just dawned on me that it makes a lot more sense that Veidt recorded that video (do they have de-aging CGI?) after he returns from Europa to radicalize potential 7th Kavalry members than that he recorded it in 1985.

I think the video was one of the dumbest ideas in the entire series so this may just be wishful thinking.

Yeah, I had thought of the same thing, because the idea that Veidt would've made a video detailing his masterplan that he gave to Redford and his government is just stupid. What if one of them disagrees with Veidt and decides to reveal it all to the world? We know that Rorschach's journal was eventually published, but only by fringe right-wing media, and it's considered an implausible conspiracy theory. But if someone from the government would confirm the theory, that would be a whole different thing, and it seems very odd that Veidt would take such a risk. So it'd make much more sense if Veidt created that video for the 7th Kavalry to confirm the conspiracy they already believed in, and he controls who gets to see it.

But like you said, this is probably just wishful thinkkng, most likely they just added the video to the series as an easy way of explaining the whole squid thing to those viewers who haven't read the comic.

agree the video is dum. not least bc it seems to both be in Open Secret circulation and completely unverifiable.

Given all the conspiracy stuff Looking Glass has in his bunker it would have been cool if he’d told Keene”yeah, I’ve seen this.”

and making Hooded Justice black in ep 6

lol wtf

do they show him painting beige makeup around his eyes and onto his eyelids, like Michael Keaton as Batman

yes actually

ha ha ha haaaaa

it ends up looking like a domino mask under the hood, good superhero look

truly a nuanced and thoughtful treatment of race relations that honours the original text

alan moore's ideas of american race and class relations are better than most people in the usa but still not amazing!

sic this show is knocking race stuff out of the park surprisingly so I wouldn't diss it until you actually see it.

He's not going to see it.

Just complain about it like a boor.

this series respects the law of what was laid down on the page, but not the spirit as the author perceived it, so it will be shrugged off as litigation is below us

Shaquille O'Neal's turn as Robert Redford is awe inspiring

I was referring to Lindelof's claims of nonpareil respect for the text generally, not to race specifically

p sure I have not lodged any complaints itt

that will be noted in today's minutes

does anyone know how veidt is getting books to read on europa is really my only outstanding question atm

they're catapulted to him

truly a nuanced and thoughtful treatment of race relations that honours the original text

― insecurity bear (sic), 11. joulukuuta 2019 3:08

Regardless of how one feels about Alan Moore's creator rights, this is kinda unfair, because the original text doesn't really address race relations or racism much, whereas those issues have been front and center in the series. And as silly as it may sound when described here, the Hooded Justice retcon does actually work, and the episode centering on him *is* a nuanced and thoughtful treatment of race relations that honours the original text. Like I said above, HJ is the only character from the original comic whose inclusion here truly works with the themes of the series, with all the others is more like "I guess we gotta have them too", which apparently is why Lindelöf included them, based on the quote above.

One issue that also kinda bugs me about wanting to include the original characters, while also setting the series in 2019, is their age. With Hooded Justice they kinda try to handwave him being over 100 years by hinting he has some kind of limited super strength and endurance, but with the others there's not even that excuse. According to their canonical birth dates, Laurie is supposed to be 70 in 2019 and Ozymandias 80, yet they don't look that way, and Laurie is still working as an active FBI agent. And I'm gonna bet that if Dan/Nite Owl II appears in the finale, he's not gonna be played by a 74-year-old actor, which would be his canonical age in 2019.

Well, Jean Smart is 68 and Jeremy Irons is 71 so not that far off

And I'm sure Ozymandias has some youthifying tech or whatever

Irons certainly looks 80.

Regardless of how one feels about Alan Moore's creator rights, this is kinda unfair, because the original text doesn't really address race relations or racism much

dammit Neanderthal why have you not distributed the minutes

Sad LOLS at trying to honour the idea of a creator's rights as being 'boorish'.

Regardless of how one feels about Alan Moore's creator rights, this is kinda unfair, because the original text doesn't really address race relations or racism much

dammit Neanderthal why have you not distributed the minutes

― insecurity bear (sic), 11. joulukuuta 2019 11:20

Well, you're the one who decided to criticise a plot point in a series you haven't seen. :) Personally I'm not unsympathetic to the creator rights argument, and I've refused to buy or read any of the prequel and sequel comics, but since I had a HBO subscription anyway and I was intrigued byt the premise of the series, I decided to be scab and try it out... And it has turned out to be better than I could've ever imagined, tho I still think it would've been better if Lindelöf had written an original alternate history series about race relations and racism (which, from what I've heard, was his original intention) without any Watchmen elements at all.

Irons certainly looks 80.

irons looks great imo, if 30 years from now i look half as fit naked as he does i'll be delighted

I still think it would've been better if Lindelöf had written an original alternate history series about race relations and racism (which, from what I've heard, was his original intention) without any Watchmen elements at all.

yeah i agree with this - the show is really good but i'd feel a lot less queasy about it if its origins weren't so tainted

it's a fair objection but tbh without the aid of pre-existing IP that show would never have been made

What does Charlton Comics have to say about source material?