Is this anti-semitism?

Yeah that's bad taste, but sometimes I wonder why it isn't also bad taste to make a movie like Life is Beautiful. Or maybe you could even make the argument against Schindler's List. Most holocaust-themed "art" involves some kind of sentimentalizing that doesn't really do the horror justice. No art really does horror justice. How much do we gatekeep the efforts? A lot of this seems to stem from olympic figure skating just not being taken very seriously as an "artform."

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, December 4, 2019 9:59 AM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i dislike both life is beautiful and schindler's list for these reasons. life is beautiful is fucking egregious imo. schnidler's list is just a little too hollywood to reckon with the holocaust (think it's hard to reckon with the holocaust via fiction just generally tho)

Life is Beautiful is a bit different in terms of tone and author from Schindler’s List, though? I mean, I don’t think Benigni himself was even Jewish, is he? Either way I think his perspective is probably not going to be be judged the same as Spielberg’s. It’s not his history.

What do you mean, “too Hollywood”? The scenes with the little girl in the red coat?

it's just generally quite schmaltzy and sentimental. feels like doing violence to the holocaust when you use stock beats and narrative arcs to show it. it was absolute horror and abnegation of humanity

I would counter that the Holocaust was absolute horror and a terrifying expression of what humanity is capable of doing to itself; calling it "abnegation" distances us from the possibility of it happening again.

iirc the only schmaltzy + sentimental part of schindler's list is arguably at the end when they show the live footage of the survivors visiting the gravesite but it has been a long long time since i've watched it so maybe there are narratively schmaltz beats i'm forgetting.

I'm probably just been awkward. i just struggle with anything about the holocaust, nothing seems to grasp the horror or the enormity enough - but if someone made a holocaust movie that was very realistic and abject i would probably find that exploitative. i guess i can just stick with shoah and if this is a man

have you seen Son of Saul? i haven't but i'm curious to hear your thoughts if you have.

That was the part I found the most moving after the part with the wedding (perhaps proving the point here). But I haven’t watched it in like 10 years.

have you seen Son of Saul? i haven't but i'm curious to hear your thoughts if you have.

― Mordy, Wednesday, December 4, 2019 10:28 AM (fifty seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

i haven't, i think i avoided it because i would find it upsetting, but i'd like to

if you've got nine and a half hours, perhaps shoah is what you're looking for
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNUbt8HEaw

i guess i can just stick with shoah and if this is a man

― #FBPIRA (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, December 4, 2019 10:27 AM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

sorry, skimming

son of saul is incredible

Both Life is Beautiful and Schindler's List has been attacked for the way they portray the Holocaust. With Schindler's List, I think it's especially the scene where they go into the showers, shaking with fear, but then it turns out it's really water this time! Life is Beautiful is absolutely crazy and disrespectful, of course. But I do kinda love it. I think Son of Saul has been called out for the way it portrays a Sonderkommando, and for aestheticizing the camps as well. To me it seems like the first film about the Holocaust that is made with the assumption that all survivors are dead, and we therefore have to reconstruct the horror without their input. But of course, not all survivors are dead yet, so it did feel a bit premature to me. But I love it.

I'm not really trying to have a hot take on whether Schindler's List is actually bad or whether Auschwitz On Ice! is actually good, I'm just saying that criticism of this seems to be more about poor taste than antisemitism, and that it's sort of a tough boundary line to draw when it comes to art about atrocities.

So, likely well-intentioned, almost certainly ill-considered, and not "anti-semitic" is my feeling.

I saw a trailer for Jojo Rabbit last week and couldn’t get past “what is this”/“how could anyone think it was ok to make this”.

IMO and the opinion of my jewish best friend it's a great film. I know not everyone agrees.

Far from media sight, Jewish Labour candidates and members are working all round the clock to secure a Labour victory.

— Michael Rosen (@MichaelRosenYes) December 7, 2019

labour should make michael rosen the government anti-semitism tsar when they win

I think he would change the appallingly inappropriate job title before accepting the role.

Not a word from Mann about a statue commemorating someone who was quoted as saying it was a shame the holocaust didn't reach New York.

oh yes deffo, apols was just using the current title
xp

I wasn't having a pop, just repeating what Rosen said about the title being especially offensive to Ashkenazi Jews - I think is what he said.

Jude making an INCREDIBLY valid point which I’ve seen time and time again when I’ve reported posts only to be told really vile comments don’t meet their opaque racism threshold:

Has anyone considered one reason people are getting lax with antisemitism is because places like Facebook and Twitter keep telling them there’s nothing wrong with their antisemitic content

— Downing Street Source (@judeinlondon2) December 7, 2019

12 Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath
Gordon Brown’s seat until the SNP gained it in 2015. They lost it again, very narrowly, to Labour in 2017 VOTE SNP
- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/08/tactical-voting-guide-2019-keep-tories-out-remain-voter-general-election

SNP becomes latest party to dump election candidate over anti-semitism allegations

Neale Hanvey is standing in the ultra-marginal seat of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, which Labour currently holds with a majority of just 259.
- https://politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/snp/news/108260/snp-becomes-latest-party-dump-election-candidate-over-anti

bump to clear bookmark

Why do you need to "bump to clear bpokmark"?

If there is a deleted post at the end of the thread, you can't clear the bookmark on the thread until another post is added to it.

(You could also unbookmark the thread but presumably you have it bookmarked so you get a more obvious alert that it's been updated.)

Ah gotcha thanks.

This seems bad.

President Trump will sign an executive order defining Judaism as a nationality, not just a religion, thus bolstering the Education Department's efforts to stamp out "Boycott Israel" movements on college campuses https://t.co/0avw7eseMc

— NYT Politics (@nytpolitics) December 10, 2019

The order will effectively interpret Judaism as a nationality, not just a religion, to trigger a federal law penalizing colleges and universities deemed to be shirking their responsibility to foster an open climate for minority students, according to the officials, who insisted on anonymity to discuss the matter before the announcement.

fucking ridiculous

Horseshit

if this flies, is saudi arabia the official country of islam, next?

recently watched hasan minhaj's netflix show about how many muslims have a very conflicted view of the country due to the requisite religious pilgrimage and the fact it's inexorably linked to the land, and therefore the government

sorry for non-anti-semitism post, but my brain started spinning

what the fuuuuuuuuck is that all about

I think we know, and that it’s the end game of multiple political threads that have culminated since Netanyahu took office

I had to persuade my wife last night that this was about BDS and not some neo-Nazi plot to register American Jews as foreign agents

you are correct - the NYT misrepresented the issue entirely. this bill is not a threat to american jews and has been in the works since the obama admin. it also does not define jews as a nationality.

https://jewishinsider.com/2019/12/exclusive-a-first-look-at-the-language-of-trumps-executive-order-on-antisemitism/

don't get me wrong I still think it's stupid

I think she had plenty if reason to worry based on how it was reported. Of course that reporting was totally wrong and caused a huge amount of worry for no reason.

I’m in Israel now and an American -Israeli citizen told me what he’d rather the USA do is allow USA passports of Americans born in Jerusalem to give the birthplace as Israel rather than just Jerusalem.

OK, not to belabor this as it is clearly just a lot of hype from the NYT, but non-zionist Jews born in the US may have a slightly different take in this stuff.

tbc if your contention is that this is designed to tamper down on the free speech of BDS advocates on campuses you are probably right about the intent (tho the jury is still out on whether it'll actually do that). if you're one of the many jewish ppl on my fb timeline concerned that this is the start of a stalinist or nazi style crackdown on jews by classifying them as a nationality before rounding them up into camps -- you have been bamboozled :(

This was misreported as being about establishing a Jewish nationality for US citizens. Given that the initial report was wrong, I agree with you. Had that report been correct, I'd be on the side of your FB friends.

even if the initial report was correct i think reading an antisemitic threat into a bill promoting by jewish activists and designed to protect jews on campus would be a strong reach but as u say it's irrelevant now

promoted* by

executive orders are not bills

you're right i misspoke