Ne'er get thee stitched til Booris be ditched: UK General Election 2019

Admittedly I browse it only casually. Not sure what ILX's general attitude is towards Corbyn really. I'm not really talking about this thread though??

Aren't you? Who are you talking about and why are you telling us about it?

What are your concerns that are being shot down or not accommodated by the horrendous reds

That thread’s title is a jokey reference to an Obama thread from a decade ago fwiw, I don’t think you can extrapolate too much from it

It is named after the "what are Barack Obama's flaws?" thread. It doesn't "speak for itself." What does that even mean?

Lol

At one point I also was disappointed that Corbyn was not a "stronger candidate", but the thing is, that stronger candidate does not exist. You said yourself you like him more than other party leaders; well, there isn't anyone else in the Labour Party who is that imaginary Strong Candidate either. Corbyn's what we've got, but he was the best candidate in the 1st leadership challenge, and let's not even talk of Owen Smith's embarrassing pronouncements. There is no obvious amazing Labour successor waiting in the wings; the LD and Tory lineups are scraping the barrel too; there's only one Green MP and I like her but she has shown pretty messed up priorities recently.

So given the choice we've actually got I've come round to thinking he's pretty good actually. In fact I am really liking most of the announcements I see coming out this election campaign and in the clips I've seen from debates and rallies he seems pretty on form, pretty strong after all.

And from another angle his strengths or weaknesses don't even matter. We just need to get the lying, country-immiserating, NHS-demolishing Tories out, and Corbyn's the only approximately realistic way to do so. I really hope he can do it, or we are all doomed. (We are probably all doomed, but hey.)

(plus everyone else OTM that the media just isn't giving Labour a chance, and for all people claim it's because Corbyn is a singularly hopeless fencesitter or dangerous extremist, or even both at once somehow, they did the same to Miliband, they did the same to Brown, so a "media-approved Labour leader" is probably also imaginary)

Explain how this is a good outcome, dl?

Downing Street Source
@judeinlondon2
Nigel Farage just said he doesn’t get called racist anymore because all the attention is on Jeremy Corbyn and he was only called racist when he dared to speak about immigration that everyone agrees with him now.

36
11:13 PM - Nov 19, 2019
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Where Nigel Farage can appropriate literal Nazi imagery, hang around with every fascist in Europe and casually drop the number of Jewish people living in America and still have a place in public life?
― gyac, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:09 PM (thirty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Who said this was a good outcome? Where did I say it's a good outcome? this is a terrible outcome.

Aren't you? Who are you talking about and why are you telling us about it?

― 'Skills' Wallace (Tom D.), Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:49 PM (fifty-nine seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

There is a world outside ILX.

It's fine for people to not vote for Labour for whatever daft reason they like, just as it's fine for people to not vote for the eventual Dem nominee vs Trump. To see the same people holding out the idea that the latter is absolutely unconscionable and the former is a sensible, measured response is eyebrow-raising wrt their priorities.

(xp) Well, I tell you what, go out there and lecture them, not us.

Can I just fill any possible gap here, by calling Farage a big suppurating racist.

You aren't talking about people on ILX. Aye, right.

Please skills Wallace, get outside the Westminster bubble and engage with legitimate concerns

the LD manifesto is called JO SWINSON’s PLAN FOR BRITAIN’S FUTURE

not a cult

It's fine for people to not vote for Labour for whatever daft reason they like, just as it's fine for people to not vote for the eventual Dem nominee vs Trump. To see the same people holding out the idea that the latter is absolutely unconscionable and the former is a sensible, measured response is eyebrow-raising wrt their priorities.

Can't really compare the rhetoric of a primary campaign with that of three weeks before a general election.

What are your concerns that are being shot down or not accommodated by the horrendous reds

― gyac, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:49 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Who talked about 'horrendous reds'?? you keep doing this thing, gyac, where you make me out to be some sort of rightwing anti-leftist and it's only going towareds proving my point. I've listed my concerns, which are shared with many many people I know who have reservations about Labour, in this thread several times. anvil is the only one who's made an effort to address them in any sort of useful way as far as i can see.

Anyway, the four day week announcement seemed to get very little play from what I can tell. It does seem that the opposition might have decided not to Streisand effect it?

Lol, explain why we should address your concerns?

As such his leadership has been riddled with problems, standing aside again and again as the Tories plough roughshod over public services.

This is crackers. Who has done more to hammer the govt on public services? Who among either his predecessors in or rivals for the labour leader's job has been anything like as focussed?

― Appleman Appears: 20/2/2020. Whose Cider You On? (Bananaman Begins), Wednesday, 20 November 2019 16:48 (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

can you address your nonsense statement here and criticism thereof

But for me I feel it's partly down to a stubbornness or an inability to preach further than the choir. That's why you get people who are confused about him. People who are largely apolitical, like Noodle's colleague who just don't understand Corbyn's politics, and people (like me), who feel like their concerns often get ignored or shot-down rather than accomodated.

I feel like your concerns have been routinely hammered over social media and msm every day for the last four years but I can see why, given Labour's better than most expected performance at the last election, one might feel like this is still not enough.

But this is also why few of us are keen to engage with them.

wait, fucked up formatting-

As such his leadership has been riddled with problems, standing aside again and again as the Tories plough roughshod over public services.

Cos they’re legitimate!

Also the deselection accusation

Literally cannot keep up but plax otm throughput

the gallant gish galloper is spraying manure all over this thread!

Take the remain thing: labour’s Brexit policy is perfectly clear and sensible and democratic and the only feasible way to stay in the eu (as opposed to say the Lib Dem strategy of enabling a Tory Brexit) but if you insist on believing that Agent Caramba is secretly hell-bent on doing Brexit at any cost, even if remain wins the People’s Vote you used to say you wanted, then that’s all you’re going to see despite all the evidence to the contrary. The problem is that it’s bollocks, and “a lot of ppl are saying this so you have to take it seriously” is also bollocks.

Corbyn secretly trying to engineer hard Brexit by voting down the government’s deal, engaging in the bad faith discussions and moving the first amendment for a public vote was bad enough. Anyone still saying or thinking this now that a 2nd ref with remain on the ballot is at best a galaxy brain

fine, you guys are right. Gish Galloping aside, Labour will win this election in a pinch because clearly they're doing all the right things. We'll have a happy Brexit outcome and all the Jewish voters who left the party will come back. Cigars all round.

i think for most of us on this thread dl some form of socialism, or what this Labour manifesto represents, which is really the most cautious toe-tip into the ocean of socialism, is so transparently good and necessary that we entertain a lot of suspicions of people who don't seem to believe it's good and necessary, or claim to be put off by their offence at the most mild-mannered and honest of party political leaders in 2019.

and some people honestly believe or like to believe that they would like to make the world a better place but something inside, class consciousness, aesthetic distaste, god knows what, makes them incapable of really supporting a change to the status quo when push comes to shove. and personally i think most of those people are unreachable, unpersuadable, and not worth the sheer psychic of engaging with on a good faith level, because they often come up with reasoning which doesn't seem to relate to any facts that i recognise but rather a set of instincts and instinctive prejudices that would need a psychiatrist to sort out, not an activist.

the gallant gish galloper is spraying manure all over this thread!

― calzino, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:02 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

sorry for mucking up your thread.

Are you ever going to address the points made about the negative consequences for other voters of a Tory government, esp one with a large majority, or do they just bother you less because Tory voters are nicer to you when they’re telling you how evil Corbyn is?

Cigars are disgusting and this is why Jiminy Concubine is my leader and not the ghost of 'ARROLD! Wilson.

like I often wish I was a less emotional person for myriad reasons, but getting and staying angry about racism isn’t really one of them and I don’t care that that bothers you.

Labour still hasn't really come across a way of presenting its Brexit policy that sticks in the mind of someone who isn't paying full attention - which isn't to do with the policy itself or the nonsensical "but which way will Corbyn vote?" question. I don't know why they aren't just going 'a referendum on the deal' or something similar, which isn't perfect but would do the job better than what we have right now.

DL I also think you put way too much emphasis on a handful of shitposters on your tl being rude about the Lib Dems (who are yellow tories and can eat shit btw 🙂) - ppl from all parts of the political spectrum are talking shit about ppl they disagree with and this is not going to be a significant factor in this election imo

and you're not really proposing solutions or alternatives dl. i know lots of people irl who do the whole "Corbyn is a friend of terrorists and a bolshevik and high here's a racist Diane Abbott meme" and the fact that they are people and have these unexamined opinions doesn't mean they're not being idiots beneath contempt when they do it.

so, who would be a better leader of the Labour party? how much individual power do you think Corbyn has? including considerations of actually likelihood of forming a government which parties' leaders are better?

wow my typo count is thru the roof, performative sincerity folks

because they often come up with reasoning which doesn't seem to relate to any facts that i recognise but rather a set of instincts and instinctive prejudices that would need a psychiatrist to sort out, not an activist.

To wit, the claims that a) Corbyn has deselected MPs over brexit, b) Corbyn has been soft on arguing against cuts to public services. The other stuff dog latin has said is on a scale between between reasonable and arguable, it's the presence of those two arguments that sends my bullshit detector crazy.

xp you’ll never be in my league so don’t even try

i think for most of us on this thread dl some form of socialism, or what this Labour manifesto represents, which is really the most cautious toe-tip into the ocean of socialism, is so transparently good and necessary that we entertain a lot of suspicions of people who don't seem to believe it's good and necessary, or claim to be put off by their offence at the most mild-mannered and honest of party political leaders in 2019.

and some people honestly believe or like to believe that they would like to make the world a better place but something inside, class consciousness, aesthetic distaste, god knows what, makes them incapable of really supporting a change to the status quo when push comes to shove. and personally i think most of those people are unreachable, unpersuadable, and not worth the sheer psychic of engaging with on a good faith level, because they often come up with reasoning which doesn't seem to relate to any facts that i recognise but rather a set of instincts and instinctive prejudices that would need a psychiatrist to sort out, not an activist.

― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:11 PM (eighteen seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

actually I really like this response. I totally get this. Can't really spend too much time ITT now cos it's made me stay late at work but I'd like to respond, other than I totally get what you're saying here. As someone who identifies as leftwing, it pains me to have a bust-up with people who ultimately align with my values.

Are you ever going to address the points made about the negative consequences for other voters of a Tory government, esp one with a large majority, or do they just bother you less because Tory voters are nicer to you when they’re telling you how evil Corbyn is?

― gyac, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:12 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I literally no longer have any idea what you're talking about.

If your answer to everything is 'BET YOU'D PREFER THE TORIES', gyac, then you're proving my initial points

this is the only debate clip that banged (1.2m views) on twitter

The Tories want to keep their NHS sell-off plan secret.

We cannot and will not let this happen.#LeadersDebate #ITVdebate pic.twitter.com/grRTP46Jdj

— Jeremy Corbyn (@jeremycorbyn) November 19, 2019

Yeah that's good stuff.

dog latin - what’s your take on this piece
https://howupsetting.com/2019/11/13/vote-labour-2/

It is ultimately unclear what you want from this thread.

The people on this thread cannot have any effect on the internal management of the Labour party or its policies (beyond those who attended conference and voted for motions) so you cannot want us to "take your views seriously" as an mp might listen to a constituent.

Neither are we canvassing you, it is not our job to "take you seriously" we are here to engage and proffer our own views. In point of fact, the whole thread has completely detailed to "take your views seriously." despite the fairly unclear challenge you have presented every regular poster has tried to engage you nonetheless.

You may mean that we have to take your concerns as themselves "legitimate" (again I'm not sure why, this is not a forum for 'recruitment' of voters) in order not to alienate others. But your view is your view, it seems fairly inflexible when faced with straightforward rebuttals of basic untruths and it is very annoying that you continue to refuse to acknowledge the many times you have asserted straightforwardly incorrect claims that we should supposedly "take seriously."

Saying "oh well everything is fine then" is bizarre. Would us "taking you seriously" in any way alleviate the real and imagined criticisms you have of Corbyn/Labour

If your answer to everything is 'BET YOU'D PREFER THE TORIES', gyac, then you're proving my initial points

covertly and overtly targeting, ffs

can we have a sidebar on this pls

A baseless and unfounded prediction. Loyalists have never attacked anything in GB. https://t.co/8nvr3VYLT9

— Emma Vardy (@EmmaVardyTV) November 19, 2019