Ne'er get thee stitched til Booris be ditched: UK General Election 2019

the problem is the people who come out with "i can't vote Labour because Corbyn", because it doesn't wash, and people who sincerely want to see a transformative government shouldn't really be voting anywhere else (in England and maybe Wales, anyway) unless out of tactical necessity. none of the high profile melts who've declared their regretful inability to vote Labour have sought to engage with their alleged issues or indeed said anything to indicate that they give a shit about left wing politics.

and Leadership is *cobblers*, he's the elected representative of the aspirations of the majority of party members, many many of who will not agree with him on every issue or think he's always right but understand that he has saved the party from a laissez-faire right wing that was well on the way to stripping it of everything that made it a worthwhile electoral choice. when people get mean and pissy with naysayers, well it might be unhelpful - might - but it comes from a place where the future government of the UK is one of the only slim possible hopes that some of us have got, not a parlour game of civility and respectfully understanding the enemies of humanity and the useful idiots that enable them.

TYRANNICAL !!!!

― ||||||||, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:06 PM (one second ago) bookmarkflaglink

Look, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but you could point to how quick he's been to deselect people in the past over things like their views on Brexit whilst being seen to be quite slow/lenient on those spouting anitsemitic views. Many see him as a man who dislikes being challenged and happiest when surrounded by yes men.

dog latin, do you consider the core values of labour to be "left liberal"? because the answer to yr question very much depends on that.

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 2:59 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't remember having a specific question? But if Labour aren't left-liberal, or progressive, or social-democrat, or whatever permutation of the broad political spectrum you care to lump leftwingers under, what are they?

in some ways tyrannical.

Which MPs did Corbyn deselect? Let alone over Brexit?!

remember when he personally deselected Kate Hoey for being mental?

the very real concerns everyday people have about voting Labour in 2019.

such as Europe or antisemitism or public spending strategies or Corbyn's overall leadership and media-handling skills, wouldn't it be better to address these

Taking these one by one,

Europe: a) The more Lib Dems that win seats the greater the margin for Boris. b) Given the Lib Dems track record on reneging on signature policies, are you really any happier with their trustworthyness (especially given it was Swinson who was pushing for a referendum 10 years ago), and Corbyns own voting record (check theyworkforyou.com) doesn't really match up with that of a eurosceptic

antisemitism: whats your preferred course of action here, and how is a Conservative government going to help?

public spending strategies: Pretty core here, if you like these you're probably a natural Labour supporter. You don't have to be! If you prefer the public spending of other parties, its ok!

Corbyn's overall leadership and media-handling skills: I don't think these are particulary that great either, but Jamie Vardy is unavailable, and
wait till you see the other two, where outright fabrication is de rigeur

Put these down on a piece of paper, put CON and LAB at the top of each, and put an X against which your prefer.

If you lucky enough to live in a non-marginal, save yourself the hand-wringing and go do something else instead, your vote doesn't matter, its not worth the agro

somebody's just snuck the local MP's election letter thru my door and the second on the list of pledges is SUPPORT FRONTLINE POLICING: Reverse police cuts. Tough action against anti-social behaviour. it's almost as if racist cunt Jack Straw hadn't died.

"Maybe I'm speaking from the privileged perspective of being in a safe Labour seat, so I could happily vote Green in good conscience. I know that's not the case for a lot of people, in which case I'd say vote tactically to get the Tories out, whoever that may be."

I see, I see..

Just pick what you like, this level of sensitivity where people are going to change their mind because someone was mean what the hell this is why we need to abolish stationery and settle this with fists

I mean, I do think a lot of anti-Corbyn sentiment is hysterical and out of proportion. I can't personally understand how someone could prefer Johnson over Corbyn.

But hand-waving away criticism or saying 'YOU DON'T LIKE CORBYN THAT MEANS YOUR A TORY' shows a shocking lack of interest in the issues around him and the people who are concerned about those issues.
That's not 'sticking up for the 99%'. That's not 'being considerate of the public's views'. I see it as a form of illiberal elitism in itself - a sort of dick-measuring contest to show how leftwing one can be. I guess this is why leftwing in-fighting happens in the first place. You don't often get arguments about 'who can be the most rightwing' as far as I understand.

I don't remember having a specific question? But if Labour aren't left-liberal, or progressive, or social-democrat, or whatever permutation of the broad political spectrum you care to lump leftwingers under, what are they?

I meant the question that started "wouldn't it be better to address these".

The issue for me is that you cannot lump "leftwingers" in as you say, there are actual real differences between being a liberal and being a leftist in terms of policy that do not just boil down to puritanism or sectarianism. Someone whose economic beliefs are fundamentally not compatible w/ those that labour stands for is not someone the party needs to "welcome back in" imo.

xposts

when you have recently (well a couple of years ago tbf) found yourself in the position of calling an ambulance because your partner with MS has attempted suicide via OD over disabled benefit reforms brought in by Labour melts and continued by tories. Then it's hard not to viscerally despise them all quite equally and not really think too much about civility towards people that seem to think a re-energised left-wing Labour is a bad thing. Because supporting policies/parties that kill citizens is the real bad etiquette imo. I couldn't give a flying one if I cause any kind of "fuck you tory!" offence to people on social media who seem to have quite a precious sense of self-importance and will always have utter bullshit excuses not to support anything approaching socialism. Being nice to people whose politics will always suck shit is not something I'm good at rn.

But hand-waving away criticism or saying 'YOU DON'T LIKE CORBYN THAT MEANS YOUR A TORY' shows a shocking lack of interest in the issues around him and the people who are concerned about those issues.

This is just what you want any of us to have said so you can do this devil's advocacy for some reason.

Aside from comrade alphabet most people itt are left wing because of the real life impact of right wing policies! Politics isn’t abstract for some people!

nuclear planes yall

you dont really have to be left wing to vote for a Corbyn government, 12 million people did last time around including a lad in my pub who's well into the death penalty so the purity test is pretty lax like

Imagine holding these attitudes in a marginal where lives are at stake, to return a Tory government that is going to kill more people over the next five years?

Sure sounds like privilege to me! xps = gyac, tell me what am I? Just for the lols

like fuck me you can take absolutely every argument about Labour antisemtism in 100% good faith, and Labour would still not have deported elderly black people to their deaths, or stripped a British citizen of her citizenship (leading to her baby to die) or be planning to say that Bloody Sunday was good actually and all those kids who got shot shouldn’t have been threatening those soldiers with their backs.

xp my accelerationist/send-in-the-tanks fave

I see it as a form of illiberal elitism in itself - a sort of dick-measuring contest to show how leftwing one can be. I guess this is why leftwing in-fighting happens in the first place. You don't often get arguments about 'who can be the most rightwing' as far as I understand.

+1 to what gyac's saying here, what you see as performative is about actual issues that affect the lives of millions.

Btw you ABSOLUTLEY get arguments about who's the most right wing, not just in straight fash circles and within the alt-right but also within the tory party!

also in New Labour

Good hearty lol from me there, thanks gyac xp

(it was racist cunt Jack Straw RIP)

lol obv the USAAF gave it a go, i should've guessed xps

i'm not an engineer but having thousands of nuclear reactors flying around the world in vehicles that sometimes crash feels a tad risky?

Tom D "person at work said they hate both but would rather have Johnson as PM than Corbyn"

Me "anyone who says this is Tory"

doglatin "HOW DARE YOU my strawman has legit concerns"

just trying to save SV's transportation outlay, call it glowing-green-sky thinking

btw Corbyn has had plenty of criticism from people itt over the years this is strawmanning par excellence.

Meanwhile, the Liberals are at the anti-Semitism now, wid ye credit it, Mrs?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/lib-dems-candidate-antisemitism

It's not even extreme left wing; as far as I can see most current Labour policies have been part of the orthodoxy of the UK left for most of my life and would not be out of place in any European social democratic party.

anvil, that's a good post. Can I reply without trying to stir things up too much. I understand it's an emotional issue for most people (including me).

Europe: a) The more Lib Dems that win seats the greater the margin for Boris. b) Given the Lib Dems track record on reneging on signature policies, are you really any happier with their trustworthyness (especially given it was Swinson who was pushing for a referendum 10 years ago), and Corbyns own voting record (check theyworkforyou.com) doesn't really match up with that of a eurosceptic

FWIW I personally think Swinson is awful in pretty much every way. I'm not convinced Corbyn isn't a Leaver at heart. Do you really think he's keen to remain in Europe? As far as I know he's been anti-EU before the EU existed.

antisemitism: whats your preferred course of action here, and how is a Conservative government going to help?

There is racism in every party. The idea that Labour and the left are by-default impervious to prejudice or racism is a fallacy.
AFAICS, Corbyn probably isn't antisemitic but he seems more interested in protecting people in his party who could be than speaking up for Jewish people.
He was slow to act when he was pulled-up on his own history of comments and slow to act on antisemitism in his party until it became a pertinent media issue.
I know many traditionally Labour-voting people (even some ex party members) who see this as a dealbreaker. If Corbyn had been quicker to own the issue and work harder to quash antisemitic views in his party, it might not be the case.

public spending strategies: Pretty core here, if you like these you're probably a natural Labour supporter. You don't have to be! If you prefer the public spending of other parties, its ok!

The idea that free broadband is Communism is super-duper stupid. But some might be sceptical about exactly how Labour might go about renationalising all these different services. It feels like a task as gargantuan and knotty as a clean Brexit. I can see a lot of people loving the idea of it raining free candy under a socialist government, but are these pretty promises that might never get fulfilled? We can only see. Unfortunately for Corbs, these campaign promises feel like sideshow diversions from the main act which is Brexit. The second he tries to change the subject, Boris only needs to shout 'GET BREXIT DONE' and we're back to Corbyn's weak spot in his armour.

Corbyn's overall leadership and media-handling skills: I don't think these are particulary that great either, but Jamie Vardy is unavailable, and
wait till you see the other two, where outright fabrication is de rigeur

Yeah, I don't know what to say. I think Corbyn comes across like a nice dude and his whole 'be nice and make jam' persona is appealing to a lot of people, but not everyone. Amazingly I think he's much better than Swinson, Johnson and May put together. Not everyone agrees, but you can't please everyone. One criticism of Corbyn is that he's a great campaigner and really good at galvansing those who are already on board, but not so good at winning people to his side.

Put these down on a piece of paper, put CON and LAB at the top of each, and put an X against which your prefer.

If you lucky enough to live in a non-marginal, save yourself the hand-wringing and go do something else instead, your vote doesn't matter, its not worth the agro

I'm trying to post from a macro viewpoint rather than my own. I want, more than ever, to get the Tories out and for us to remain in Europe. I consider myself a left-winger, but increasingly I see myself as a Remainer first and foremost. I don't believe that you can end austerity and keep public services running if we leave Europe.

But it's not about how I peronsally vote. I'm interested in Labour winning but they will only do that if they continuously improve and win more people to their side. Simply saying 'you vote Labour or Tory, and that's it'. Labour and their supporters need to own their critics and work towards the future. Consider the viewpoints of others rather than jump on them. I don't give a shit about Corbyn. I think he's actively hurting the Labour party at this stage and the sooner he's replaced, the better. In fact I'd say he's abetted the Tory government in many ways. But that's a story for another time.

[screams] https://t.co/YKt95vX5Pq pic.twitter.com/i5K2MIaPkF

— hern (@alexhern) November 20, 2019

Crying @ this policy

Sending this to the only Lib Dem I know and waiting for a reaction

lol! I keep thinking how can they get any more worse? but they are reading my mind. But yeah obv making landlords richer is powerful food for thought!

FWIW I personally think Swinson is awful in pretty much every way. I'm not convinced Corbyn isn't a Leaver at heart. Do you really think he's keen to remain in Europe? As far as I know he's been anti-EU before the EU existed.

like fuck me you can take absolutely every argument about Labour antisemtism in 100% good faith, and Labour would still not have deported elderly black people to their deaths, or stripped a British citizen of her citizenship (leading to her baby to die) or be planning to say that Bloody Sunday was good actually and all those kids who got shot shouldn’t have been threatening those soldiers with their backs.

― gyac, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:32 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I will say it again and again and again: Just because someone has concerns about Corbyn's Labour doesn't make them a Tory who wants to kill people. Everyone knows the Tories are pricks. Saying 'Yeah, Labour might have an antisemitism problem, but the Tories are more racist' kind of skirts around the issue, no? I know plenty of people who feel disgusted by Labour's handling of antisemitism. Are you saying they're wrong to feel that way?

gyac, I'm not on Twitter

I don't really feel like wading into this again, but you and I are on the same wavelength, dl. At the risk of repeating myself, I very much hope Labour wins as many seats as possible because it's this country's best shot at a proper future, just don't expect me to buy into Corbyn wholesale or muster the least bit of enthusiasm for him.

(aside) oh god that 'help to rent' thing, fuck me that's risible

"just don't expect me to buy into Corbyn wholesale or muster the least bit of enthusiasm for him."

This is called 'critical support',,,I believe!

I'm trying to post from a macro viewpoint rather than my own

This is the main problem with what you're saying. You're conflating your view with the view of an imaginary "Mr Wavering Labour, Milltown" and flitting back and forth between the two. Is this about winning over Mr Labour, or yourself? when does it switch from one to the other? This leads to confusion and disarray, topic after topic all rolled in together, racing from one to the next. It has the effect of an unintentional Gish Gallop

Sounds good to me.

xp

_like fuck me you can take absolutely every argument about Labour antisemtism in 100% good faith, and Labour would still not have deported elderly black people to their deaths, or stripped a British citizen of her citizenship (leading to her baby to die) or be planning to say that Bloody Sunday was good actually and all those kids who got shot shouldn’t have been threatening those soldiers with their backs.

― gyac, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:32 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink_


I will say it again and again and again: Just because someone has concerns about Corbyn's Labour doesn't make them a Tory who wants to kill people. Everyone knows the Tories are pricks. Saying 'Yeah, Labour might have an antisemitism problem, but the Tories are more racist' kind of skirts around the issue, no? I know plenty of people who feel disgusted by Labour's handling of antisemitism. Are you saying they're wrong to feel that way?

To recap: If someone's issues with Corbyn are enough to make them vote tory, they're a tory. If someone votes lib dem because they don't think Corbyn is sufficiently committed to Remain, they're a mug getting played by Swinson who dgaf.

If you're not that keen on Corbyn but are going to vote labour anyway, then good man yourself for keeping your eye on the fucking ball.

Explain how this is a good outcome, dl?

Nigel Farage just said he doesn’t get called racist anymore because all the attention is on Jeremy Corbyn and he was only called racist when he dared to speak about immigration that everyone agrees with him now.

— Downing Street Source (@judeinlondon2) November 19, 2019

Only saw an edited clip but NF was doing the Trumpy thing with his hands more last night then I remember him doing before.

This is the main problem with what you're saying. You're conflating your view with the view of an imaginary "Mr Wavering Labour, Milltown" and flitting back and forth between the two. Is this about winning over Mr Labour, or yourself? when does it switch from one to the other? This leads to confusion and disarray, topic after topic all rolled in together, racing from one to the next. It has the effect of an unintentional Gish Gallop

― anvil, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:07 PM (fifty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

I... don't really know what a Gish Gallop is, nor really what you're saying here.

If you want to know my view, it's that I believe Labour don't currently stand a chance of beating the Tories if their supporters are going to be actively volatile towards anyone who dares to raise questions about them.
Corbyn's cult of personality only stretches so far - spellbinding his admirers while leaving sceptics and floating voters cold. He and his supporters don't seem very interested in reaching those people either.
I feel that if he really were a stronger candidate he would have been able to decimate this shitty Tory government long ago. As such his leadership has been riddled with problems, standing aside again and again as the Tories plough roughshod over public services.
He's been awful at handling his media profile, while his defenders bleat constantly about conspiracies and 'media smears'. Take gyac's 'Stop reading centrist propaganda on Twitter' - no sorry, I'm listening to the very real concerns of good people I know personally and trust. Or maybe they're just Swinson shills? Maybe they secretly hate the poor and the sick. Maybe they want to suck Johnson's cock. Could be. What's real anymore? IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY!

💡 IMPORTANT GENERAL ELECTION EXERCISE💡

Type in your former school name ⌨️ https://t.co/sHZFX2rpOs

Share what you find and #VoteEducation #GeneralElection2019

— Ewa Jasiewicz (@ewa_jay) November 20, 2019

xp great response, civility politics at its best

"spellbinding his admirers while leaving sceptics and floating voters cold."

lool ..you don't half post some utterly hyperbolic garbage