Ne'er get thee stitched til Booris be ditched: UK General Election 2019

tbh i'm still reeling from the semiotics of the blobby lemonade tin

(= "i have to piss, it's what you're drinking")

he never disappoints

I'm not bringing Charlie's alcoholism into this, because at least he was not a tory and a principled politician who actually stood for some kind of opposition.

coincidentally only liberal democrat leader ever to be toppled by mutiny within the party

Air Passenger Duty raised £3.6 bn last year. Lib Dems want to squeeze an extra £4.8 bn out of passengers. Anyone taking 3 or more international return flights a year will pay progressively more for each additional flight. Details vague but tax appears aimed at business travellers pic.twitter.com/PnP4aSe86C

— Joel Hills (@ITVJoel) November 20, 2019

Intrigued by how this is meant to work in practice.

they tattoo a little airplane icon on your face every time you fly

taxing frequent flying is ... probably a good thing and almost certainly progressive? the key is how to administer it

if only she was as clear on her other policies as she is on bollox to brexit and the nuclear annihilation of millions of people

xxxp sucks to be you

I'm presuming this would be quite an expensive and complicated policy to get started, but might be good in the long run?

If the funds raised were ring-fenced and used to develop a low emission plane then maybe.

lol good to see Boris leaking the NI threshold being raised - could cost up to £17 billion?

nuclear planes yall

can they be used against squirrels?

I would ask people focused on leadership (or Corbyn’s apparent lack thereof) as a concept to set out what attributes their ideal leader has. Is it a sense of being ‘commanding’? Do you just want to be told what to do all the time? Do you want to feel like part of a team, or like you are being listened to? Or do you just want to see the manager and know that your say-so will get that little shit in trouble?

― santa clause four (suzy), Wednesday, November 20, 2019 1:22 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

no shit there are more than two parties, but under fptp only two have a chance of running the government and in a lot of constituencies voting for the one means the other is more likely to get in?

― gyac, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 1:23 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Like I could vote Green, but doing so only makes it more likely my seat stays Tory...?

― gyac, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 1:24 PM (fifty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Lol, what a set of excuses! Anything not to vote Labour!

― xyzzzz__, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 1:30 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm having difficulty parsing suzy's post though... What's this all about? There are plenty of people who would say Corbyn is a terrible listener: one-track minded, inflexible to other's views, and in some ways tyrannical.

Maybe I'm speaking from the privileged perspective of being in a safe Labour seat, so I could happily vote Green in good conscience. I know that's not the case for a lot of people, in which case I'd say vote tactically to get the Tories out, whoever that may be.

I'm still undecided as to whether I'll vote Labour or Green yet. Could very well be Labour, but it's beside the point.

I'm irked by the nasty, chiding attitude I'm seeing from certain quarters whereby Labour supporters will turn on anyone who dares criticise Corbyn with a kneejerk: 'You must hate the NHS and poor people, fuck off back to your mansion crypto-Tory scum!'. I don't think this is helpful and I wouldn't be surprised if it drove floating voters away.

'Any excuse to vote Tory'? This is a derisive hand-waving away of some of the very real concerns everyday people have about voting Labour in 2019. It shouldn't be 'hold your nose or fuck off'. Sure the rightwing will jump on things like the antisemitism issue and blow it out of proportion, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or shouldn't be addressed. Similarly, if one is a Remainer, how confident should they feel if Corbyn (in my eyes a eurosceptic) comes to power and a second referendum points to Remain?

If someone is left-liberal but held-back about issues such as Europe or antisemitism or public spending strategies or Corbyn's overall leadership and media-handling skills, wouldn't it be better to address these maturely and in a more nuanced way than 'Stop believing the MSM' or worse 'If you don't like it, you're a traitor to the cause, spreading rightwing lies'.

dog latin, do you consider the core values of labour to be "left liberal"? because the answer to yr question very much depends on that.

I get annoyed at people who will vote lib dem instead of labour over brexit, because the lib dems are patently uninterested in stopping brexit. It's purely a culture war to ride for them.

TYRANNICAL !!!!

the problem is the people who come out with "i can't vote Labour because Corbyn", because it doesn't wash, and people who sincerely want to see a transformative government shouldn't really be voting anywhere else (in England and maybe Wales, anyway) unless out of tactical necessity. none of the high profile melts who've declared their regretful inability to vote Labour have sought to engage with their alleged issues or indeed said anything to indicate that they give a shit about left wing politics.

and Leadership is *cobblers*, he's the elected representative of the aspirations of the majority of party members, many many of who will not agree with him on every issue or think he's always right but understand that he has saved the party from a laissez-faire right wing that was well on the way to stripping it of everything that made it a worthwhile electoral choice. when people get mean and pissy with naysayers, well it might be unhelpful - might - but it comes from a place where the future government of the UK is one of the only slim possible hopes that some of us have got, not a parlour game of civility and respectfully understanding the enemies of humanity and the useful idiots that enable them.

TYRANNICAL !!!!

― ||||||||, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:06 PM (one second ago) bookmarkflaglink

Look, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but you could point to how quick he's been to deselect people in the past over things like their views on Brexit whilst being seen to be quite slow/lenient on those spouting anitsemitic views. Many see him as a man who dislikes being challenged and happiest when surrounded by yes men.

dog latin, do you consider the core values of labour to be "left liberal"? because the answer to yr question very much depends on that.

― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 2:59 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't remember having a specific question? But if Labour aren't left-liberal, or progressive, or social-democrat, or whatever permutation of the broad political spectrum you care to lump leftwingers under, what are they?

in some ways tyrannical.

Which MPs did Corbyn deselect? Let alone over Brexit?!

remember when he personally deselected Kate Hoey for being mental?

the very real concerns everyday people have about voting Labour in 2019.

such as Europe or antisemitism or public spending strategies or Corbyn's overall leadership and media-handling skills, wouldn't it be better to address these

Taking these one by one,

Europe: a) The more Lib Dems that win seats the greater the margin for Boris. b) Given the Lib Dems track record on reneging on signature policies, are you really any happier with their trustworthyness (especially given it was Swinson who was pushing for a referendum 10 years ago), and Corbyns own voting record (check theyworkforyou.com) doesn't really match up with that of a eurosceptic

antisemitism: whats your preferred course of action here, and how is a Conservative government going to help?

public spending strategies: Pretty core here, if you like these you're probably a natural Labour supporter. You don't have to be! If you prefer the public spending of other parties, its ok!

Corbyn's overall leadership and media-handling skills: I don't think these are particulary that great either, but Jamie Vardy is unavailable, and
wait till you see the other two, where outright fabrication is de rigeur

Put these down on a piece of paper, put CON and LAB at the top of each, and put an X against which your prefer.

If you lucky enough to live in a non-marginal, save yourself the hand-wringing and go do something else instead, your vote doesn't matter, its not worth the agro

somebody's just snuck the local MP's election letter thru my door and the second on the list of pledges is SUPPORT FRONTLINE POLICING: Reverse police cuts. Tough action against anti-social behaviour. it's almost as if racist cunt Jack Straw hadn't died.

"Maybe I'm speaking from the privileged perspective of being in a safe Labour seat, so I could happily vote Green in good conscience. I know that's not the case for a lot of people, in which case I'd say vote tactically to get the Tories out, whoever that may be."

I see, I see..

Just pick what you like, this level of sensitivity where people are going to change their mind because someone was mean what the hell this is why we need to abolish stationery and settle this with fists

I mean, I do think a lot of anti-Corbyn sentiment is hysterical and out of proportion. I can't personally understand how someone could prefer Johnson over Corbyn.

But hand-waving away criticism or saying 'YOU DON'T LIKE CORBYN THAT MEANS YOUR A TORY' shows a shocking lack of interest in the issues around him and the people who are concerned about those issues.
That's not 'sticking up for the 99%'. That's not 'being considerate of the public's views'. I see it as a form of illiberal elitism in itself - a sort of dick-measuring contest to show how leftwing one can be. I guess this is why leftwing in-fighting happens in the first place. You don't often get arguments about 'who can be the most rightwing' as far as I understand.

I don't remember having a specific question? But if Labour aren't left-liberal, or progressive, or social-democrat, or whatever permutation of the broad political spectrum you care to lump leftwingers under, what are they?

I meant the question that started "wouldn't it be better to address these".

The issue for me is that you cannot lump "leftwingers" in as you say, there are actual real differences between being a liberal and being a leftist in terms of policy that do not just boil down to puritanism or sectarianism. Someone whose economic beliefs are fundamentally not compatible w/ those that labour stands for is not someone the party needs to "welcome back in" imo.

xposts

when you have recently (well a couple of years ago tbf) found yourself in the position of calling an ambulance because your partner with MS has attempted suicide via OD over disabled benefit reforms brought in by Labour melts and continued by tories. Then it's hard not to viscerally despise them all quite equally and not really think too much about civility towards people that seem to think a re-energised left-wing Labour is a bad thing. Because supporting policies/parties that kill citizens is the real bad etiquette imo. I couldn't give a flying one if I cause any kind of "fuck you tory!" offence to people on social media who seem to have quite a precious sense of self-importance and will always have utter bullshit excuses not to support anything approaching socialism. Being nice to people whose politics will always suck shit is not something I'm good at rn.

But hand-waving away criticism or saying 'YOU DON'T LIKE CORBYN THAT MEANS YOUR A TORY' shows a shocking lack of interest in the issues around him and the people who are concerned about those issues.

This is just what you want any of us to have said so you can do this devil's advocacy for some reason.

Aside from comrade alphabet most people itt are left wing because of the real life impact of right wing policies! Politics isn’t abstract for some people!

nuclear planes yall

you dont really have to be left wing to vote for a Corbyn government, 12 million people did last time around including a lad in my pub who's well into the death penalty so the purity test is pretty lax like

Imagine holding these attitudes in a marginal where lives are at stake, to return a Tory government that is going to kill more people over the next five years?

Sure sounds like privilege to me! xps = gyac, tell me what am I? Just for the lols

like fuck me you can take absolutely every argument about Labour antisemtism in 100% good faith, and Labour would still not have deported elderly black people to their deaths, or stripped a British citizen of her citizenship (leading to her baby to die) or be planning to say that Bloody Sunday was good actually and all those kids who got shot shouldn’t have been threatening those soldiers with their backs.

xp my accelerationist/send-in-the-tanks fave

I see it as a form of illiberal elitism in itself - a sort of dick-measuring contest to show how leftwing one can be. I guess this is why leftwing in-fighting happens in the first place. You don't often get arguments about 'who can be the most rightwing' as far as I understand.

+1 to what gyac's saying here, what you see as performative is about actual issues that affect the lives of millions.

Btw you ABSOLUTLEY get arguments about who's the most right wing, not just in straight fash circles and within the alt-right but also within the tory party!

also in New Labour

Good hearty lol from me there, thanks gyac xp

(it was racist cunt Jack Straw RIP)

lol obv the USAAF gave it a go, i should've guessed xps

i'm not an engineer but having thousands of nuclear reactors flying around the world in vehicles that sometimes crash feels a tad risky?

Tom D "person at work said they hate both but would rather have Johnson as PM than Corbyn"

Me "anyone who says this is Tory"

doglatin "HOW DARE YOU my strawman has legit concerns"

just trying to save SV's transportation outlay, call it glowing-green-sky thinking

btw Corbyn has had plenty of criticism from people itt over the years this is strawmanning par excellence.

Meanwhile, the Liberals are at the anti-Semitism now, wid ye credit it, Mrs?

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/lib-dems-candidate-antisemitism

It's not even extreme left wing; as far as I can see most current Labour policies have been part of the orthodoxy of the UK left for most of my life and would not be out of place in any European social democratic party.

anvil, that's a good post. Can I reply without trying to stir things up too much. I understand it's an emotional issue for most people (including me).

Europe: a) The more Lib Dems that win seats the greater the margin for Boris. b) Given the Lib Dems track record on reneging on signature policies, are you really any happier with their trustworthyness (especially given it was Swinson who was pushing for a referendum 10 years ago), and Corbyns own voting record (check theyworkforyou.com) doesn't really match up with that of a eurosceptic

FWIW I personally think Swinson is awful in pretty much every way. I'm not convinced Corbyn isn't a Leaver at heart. Do you really think he's keen to remain in Europe? As far as I know he's been anti-EU before the EU existed.

antisemitism: whats your preferred course of action here, and how is a Conservative government going to help?

There is racism in every party. The idea that Labour and the left are by-default impervious to prejudice or racism is a fallacy.
AFAICS, Corbyn probably isn't antisemitic but he seems more interested in protecting people in his party who could be than speaking up for Jewish people.
He was slow to act when he was pulled-up on his own history of comments and slow to act on antisemitism in his party until it became a pertinent media issue.
I know many traditionally Labour-voting people (even some ex party members) who see this as a dealbreaker. If Corbyn had been quicker to own the issue and work harder to quash antisemitic views in his party, it might not be the case.

public spending strategies: Pretty core here, if you like these you're probably a natural Labour supporter. You don't have to be! If you prefer the public spending of other parties, its ok!

The idea that free broadband is Communism is super-duper stupid. But some might be sceptical about exactly how Labour might go about renationalising all these different services. It feels like a task as gargantuan and knotty as a clean Brexit. I can see a lot of people loving the idea of it raining free candy under a socialist government, but are these pretty promises that might never get fulfilled? We can only see. Unfortunately for Corbs, these campaign promises feel like sideshow diversions from the main act which is Brexit. The second he tries to change the subject, Boris only needs to shout 'GET BREXIT DONE' and we're back to Corbyn's weak spot in his armour.

Corbyn's overall leadership and media-handling skills: I don't think these are particulary that great either, but Jamie Vardy is unavailable, and
wait till you see the other two, where outright fabrication is de rigeur

Yeah, I don't know what to say. I think Corbyn comes across like a nice dude and his whole 'be nice and make jam' persona is appealing to a lot of people, but not everyone. Amazingly I think he's much better than Swinson, Johnson and May put together. Not everyone agrees, but you can't please everyone. One criticism of Corbyn is that he's a great campaigner and really good at galvansing those who are already on board, but not so good at winning people to his side.

Put these down on a piece of paper, put CON and LAB at the top of each, and put an X against which your prefer.

If you lucky enough to live in a non-marginal, save yourself the hand-wringing and go do something else instead, your vote doesn't matter, its not worth the agro

I'm trying to post from a macro viewpoint rather than my own. I want, more than ever, to get the Tories out and for us to remain in Europe. I consider myself a left-winger, but increasingly I see myself as a Remainer first and foremost. I don't believe that you can end austerity and keep public services running if we leave Europe.

But it's not about how I peronsally vote. I'm interested in Labour winning but they will only do that if they continuously improve and win more people to their side. Simply saying 'you vote Labour or Tory, and that's it'. Labour and their supporters need to own their critics and work towards the future. Consider the viewpoints of others rather than jump on them. I don't give a shit about Corbyn. I think he's actively hurting the Labour party at this stage and the sooner he's replaced, the better. In fact I'd say he's abetted the Tory government in many ways. But that's a story for another time.

[screams] https://t.co/YKt95vX5Pq pic.twitter.com/i5K2MIaPkF

— hern (@alexhern) November 20, 2019

Crying @ this policy

Sending this to the only Lib Dem I know and waiting for a reaction