Rolling Marvel Cinematic Universe thread (+ a poll: Classic or Dud?)

and *after* Moore other, much less scrupulous and creative people, really ran with it (Squadron Supreme etc.)

xp

i wonder what he'd think about this other guy alan moore who basically inscribed that particular narrative stylistically

luckily for you, he has expounded his criticisms of that guy at length since at least... 1988? when he had long finished his three-year career run of writing superhero IP, and was saying how bad The Killing Joke was before it even came out.

and is maybe more responsible than any other comic book writer for its aesthetic promulgation in the medium

a fine trick to achieve before his own birth

xp Squadron Supreme predated Watchmen. Moore mentions it in this 1987 interview: http://www.tcj.com/a-portal-to-another-dimension-alan-moore-dave-gibbons-and-neil-gaiman/

haha! well that's even better

i don't think the idea of superheroes is inherently fascist is my feeling even if it has increasingly become that. superman's origins at least seem to be anti-fascist (themes of immigration, protection of democratic liberalism, responsibility in power, obligation to the community + society) - just having a superpowered individual doesn't inherently make a fascist story. nb i was only 2yo when Watchmen came out so i'm looking back on this history having read many comics from over the century of the medium and to me there definitely seems to be a cruel fascist emergence circa Moore's (and Miller's) contributions to the medium. were they always there? maybe but clearly the opposite possibility has also been present.

fwiw i know this is an extension of the MCU conversation which i haven't really participated in but i'd like to say i've seen them all except some of the Captain America's, the new Cpt Marvel and like a half of a few of the ones i actually could not make it through (the new ant-man + wasp, one or two of the iron mans). my feeling is that they're too tepid to be fascist or anything really.

I don't think they're inherently fascist either, and I also don't think that (adults) who see superhero movies are necessarily clinging to their "relatively reassuring childhoods (or "the 20th Century"); or that there's a "numbing condition of cultural stasis" in modern popular culture... guess I don't agree w/Moore on anything here, lol

At least Scorsese didn't attempt to psychoanalyze the movies' audience (beyond noting that "people like theme parks," or whatever)

just having a superpowered individual doesn't inherently make a fascist story

I suspect Moore's contention is that it is, actually.

I'm not sure I entirely agree tbh, but I can see the argument - just in how the superpowered individual is inherently set apart from non-superpowered masses, making them uniquely responsible and capable, their existence automatically sets up a hierarchy with a power imbalance (similar to the basic cop POV: everyone who is not a cop is either a criminal or a victim, etc.)

but we know ppl come with varying abilities - to dramatize that as a way of showing how we all contribute to the general welfare, have responsibilities to one another all lives are worthy etc is to me one of the key functions of liberalism. if you're right about moore's argument i feel like just leads to denialism or harrison bergeronism

Moore is a literal anarchist, no duh he thinks stories about people born or chanced into massive power that they parade & exploit & dominate others with can have fascist undertones, overtones, and tones

But with great power comes great fuckin' responsibility, y'know?

"obligation to the community + society" literally covers most of fascism's self-justification iirc

i've said this before here but quite a lot of fiction over the last few hundred years is about people who don't have to play by the same rules the normals do i.e. kings, policemen, doctors, hitmen, detectives, wizards etc because it's easier to commit action to the stage/screen if this is so - there isn't anything stopping the hero from taking whatever direct or spectacular action the drama demands. i don't think this is (necessarily) a 'fascist' mode of creative production (though i'm pretty sure it can be!) but i also don't think it's moore's beef in that graf: he's saying the IP is stale and the execs who commission it are unadventurous.

"obligation to the community + society" literally covers most of fascism's self-justification iirc

So it’s fascist until proven otherwise? Lol

A doesn’t equal B simply because B sometimes employs elements of A for “self-justification”

Superhero stories aren’t inherently fascist for any number of reasons, including the fact that superheroes don’t typically behave like fascists; except when they do, in comics that are usually “exploring the links btw superheroes and fascism.”

Superheroes are known for fighting fascists, either real (Nazis) or fictional (Hydra).

I'm not sure I entirely agree tbh, but I can see the argument - just in how the superpowered individual is inherently set apart from non-superpowered masses, making them uniquely responsible and capable, their existence automatically sets up a hierarchy with a power imbalance

He dug into this a bit in Marvelman/Miracleman book 3, how the supers and aliens remade society after they trashed London, brushing aside any objections from mere humans. It was satisfying to see someone completely defang Thatcher but it was a bit chilling at the same time. Much as I hate to give Mark Millar any credit, he deals with the power imbalances pretty effectively in Jupiter's Legacy.

Mordy had opposed social obligation to "fascism" which i thought was pretty rich - the term fascism literally comes from the idea of individuals subsuming themselves into a bigger, more powerful tool or weapon

if i was being cheeky i'd say 'avengers assemble' now but *big donald trump energy* i won't say that

but again moore is kind of throwing that stuff in gratuitously to his main point, that this IP is comfort food for aging white men.

much like 'the irishman' obv ;)

I guarantee "The Irishman" demo is like 400% older, whiter, and more male than that of the average superhero movie!

Yea easily

word

Glad we’ve identified the real enemy lol

Gabbnebb

superheroes don’t typically behave like fascists

They act like their belief in their own excellence justifies them in flauting any law or societal norm they choose in the service of gratifying their own self-righteousness.

No, you’re thinking of super villains.

no, you are

https://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/pee-wees-playhouse.jpg

Funny how when i espoused a similar line of thinking to explain why I was Team Stark and not Team Cappy i got clowned in the Civil War thread

Superheroes aren't seeking power, or trying to consolidate power, or reinforce existing political structures. They're not opposing liberal democracy; or promoting nationalism, racism, xenophobia, or authoritarianism. They're not acting in a political way at all. They usually operate outside the state's control, and are at best grudgingly tolerated by the authorities. Often, the degree to which heroes should cooperate with authorities or the state is a major tension point (cf. Civil War, or the span of Captain America's entire career).

Their superhuman abilities are usually a gift, or an accident; and heroes committed to using their powers to protect the weak and powerless, often at great risk and expense to their own lives. And, fist and foremost, they protect the world from super villains, who actively seek power (of all kinds) and who exploit/attack ordinary people and seek to undermine the social order.

Of course, there are certain exceptions to all these points, in the zillion superhero stories ever written / filmed... but even at their "worst," most super-heroes are no more fascist than the cast of Watchmen (in Moore's own words from that 1987 interview):

There aren’t really any fascist superheroes in Watchmen. Rorschach’s not a fascist; he’s a nutcase. The Comedian’s not a fascist’ he’s a psychopath. Dr. Manhattan’s not a fascist; he’s a space cadet. They’re not fascists. They’re not in control of their world.

The intellectual frisson comes from the idea that superheroes could take control of their world, if they decided to... but that's generally relegated to thought experiments like Squadron Supreme.

("fist and foremost" is a typo; but I like it, LOL)

Superheroes are known for fighting fascists, either real (Nazis) or fictional (Hydra).

– largely written and drawn by creators who have never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them, much less the rights of a Jack Kirby or Jerry Siegel or Joe Shuster –

They usually operate outside the state's control, and are at best grudgingly tolerated by the authorities.

good to see you coming round

They act like their belief in their own excellence justifies them in flauting any law or societal norm they choose in the service of gratifying their own self-righteousness.

Superhero stories that don't factor in the inherent potential for fascism are like seeing Yogi Bear cartoons as nature documentaries. Which is fine, no problem, but

Which is why I liked X2. Mutants merely existing was enough for right wing politicians to try and herd them up.

Which lead to near Genocide from Magneto as paunack

Payback wtf

good to see you coming round

To your notion that an “outlaw” somehow = a “fascist”? Naw, not at all.

I typed a few more words than "law" iirc

The phrase you typed didn’t seem to describe (most) superheroes, or fascism for that matter.

http://cafart.r.worldssl.net/images/Category_3563/subcat_75878/aaaaMarshallLawAdRestoiredOverlay.jpg

ITT people who don't read superhero comics tell us about the state of superhero comics today

BRB, Imma go school some poptimists on music I stopped paying attention to a decade and a half ago, should make for scintillating conversation

Not to be a FASCIST but if I could have one superpower it would be to impose like a ten post limit on people whose superpower is finding 312,187 ways to empty their bowels into a thread whose topic they aren't a fan of.

if i posted that parallax view thor gif again now would someone have the common courtesy to trenchant it this time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NSONU9uguM

I actually will take the opportunity to promote the Squadron Supreme thread I started a few years back (as that series has been mentioned a few times now, mainly by me): Squadron Supreme (Mark Gruenwald) - C or D?

Not to be a FASCIST but if I could have one superpower it would be to impose like a ten post limit on people whose superpower is finding 312,187 ways to empty their bowels into a thread whose topic they aren't a fan of.

that fuckin' morris, talking about whether superheroes are classic or dud on a thread about whether superheroes are classic or dud again

They act like their belief in their own excellence justifies them in flauting any law or societal norm they choose in the service of gratifying their own self-righteousness.

No, you’re thinking of super villains.

no, you are

Morris is right here, like this isn't even close, concern about their powers vs norms is one of the defining features of (particularly Marvel!) modern superheroes.

You know what is a fascist superhero film? The Incredibles! It's about a revolutionary who wants to force through superpowers 4 all, but the 'heroes' stop him because they hate equality. People have to be 'special', because... so I guess other people can't have better lives. No, really, it's a shit film, the scene at the end where the son cheats at running, but not enough to really impress and inspire and look super, just enough so that he will get the trophy instead of some other poor kid who had to work for it? I don't get why people like it, it's horrifying and evil.

And yeah, perhaps the biggest difference with Marvel in the sixties were how they saw superheroes as more like 'other' and 'different' instead of just being better. X-Men has always been a minority fighting for their rights. The Thing, Hulk. But it's not something the MCU has been good at, partly because the weirdest heroes were at FOX, partly because they to some extent based the Avengers on the Ultimates instead, which kinda are about fascists.

concern about their powers vs norms is one of the defining features of (particularly Marvel!) modern superheroes

analysing and deconstructing the tropes of something doesn't stop them being tropes. I believe the gentleman in question was saddened to discover this in the wake of his major works in the field.

ha, The Incredibles seemed like such Ayn Rand fanfic they made the second one pointedly not-so
https://screenrant.com/incredibles-2-theory-ayn-rand/

I remember Alan Moore many years ago talking about a 1970s UK fanzine article that raised the question of fascism in relation to superhero comics, and how influential this was on his thinking about the form - so this isn't a new thing for him, or for comics fandom.

Saying that superhero movies and comics are pretty fascist isn't (for me) the same thing as saying they're without interest or merit - in the same way that one can be a bleeding heart liberal and still take great pleasure from Dirty Harry.

Fred OTM about The Incredibles. Pixar sucks.

It's puzzling and more than a little disappointing to see people itt who are so superhumanly (HMMMMMM) knowledgeable about the medium talking in broad terms about the inherent fascism of superhero comics as if they were a gaggle of PMRC-ers denouncing rap music on the basis of that one song they half heard coming out of their kid's stereo that one time. It might help if you cited your sources because I'd bet dollars to donuts that most of the mainstream comics I've read in the past decade+ aren't among them.