2020 Democratic presidential primary

This is not like Glenn Greenwald supporting the Iraq War, then becoming so distrustful of the US that he ends up helping the Russians get Trump elected. The point is that Warren has shown the ability to get smarter, which is a fundamental part of her appeal. Her constant 'I've got a plan for that' is as much about her coming up with plans in real time, as it's about her knowing all the answers.

as someone who’s had a pretty substantial political evolution Warren’s story resonates with me. tho I did most of my “evolving” between high school and turning 30.

While conversely the appeal of Sanders is supposed to be that he is right, and his rightness is so powerful that it, combined with his willingness to fight for what is right, will make everything right, no matter the obstacles all the wrong - and evil - people will throw in his way. And I have a lot of problems with that theory.

Fred is otm tbh

Milton Friedman YouTube clip and says “I find some of his ideas persuasive”.

Plz remind your friend that persuasion is very much dependent on framing, rhetorical devices, and the exclusion of contrary evidence. He should watch that clip knowing that Friedman was play acting the role of an academic, but was thinking like a high-powered corporate lawyer writing a court brief against a class action lawsuit.

combined with his willingness to fight for what is right, will make everything right, no matter the obstacles all the wrong

no one believes this

I mean, probably some of his youngest supporters do. But anyone serious knows that change will be difficult and failures will occur, as they would with Warren.

While conversely the appeal of Sanders is supposed to be that he is right, and his rightness is so powerful that it, combined with his willingness to fight

yeah, I mean this is reductio ad absurdum, but its not totally un accurate, I DO trust Bernie to actually fight for working class Issues in way that i don't trust Warren to. this has to do not just with their political histories, the fact that Bernie has been an advocate for M4all and fight for 15 for years but now they are standard democratic planck issues should count for something no? but also with the differences in how they ideologically frame the issues, who they surround themselves with and the actual differences in what they advocate for domestically and in foreign policy.

I this just naive Panglossian false hope for batter world? probably

yes the world will become batter after a while

You are better at talking up Bernie than at bashing Warren, dsb, probably because you're on more solid ground there. Just realize that diminishing the other potential Democratic nominees may look like a good idea now, but when the general election comes around and you've talked yourself into hating the eventual Democratic candidate, this won't help the outcome a bit.

He's also ignoring Warren's battles with the Obama administration, among others, since 2008.

if we don't discuss her faults now surely the republicans will also be nice in the general.

broadcasting false memes is not 'discussing her faults'

What does our discussing her flaws (and she has them) have anything to do with the general election? I can defend her and Sanders to my psycho relatives.

Also, when we know the nominee our job will be to vote for him or her, not to worry about GOP attacks. You'll convince no one.

yeah sure, you can count on me but i live in maryland. maybe some people in states that actually count aren't ready to take that democratic party pledge, and will instead decide to go to work instead of wating in intentionally understaffed long lines in to vote.

Anyway, I enjoyed Bernie's Desus and Mero segment.

broadcasting false memes is not 'discussing her faults'

― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, November 2, 2019 6:17 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

what have posted that is a "false meme"?

if we don't discuss her faults now surely the republicans will also be nice in the general.

― dsb, Saturday, November 2, 2019 1:15 PM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol yes i'm sure republicans will be parroting all the same leftist talking points my bernie bros are making. warren and sanders look the exact same to republicans

maybe you haven't heard, this guy "trump", he uses populist anti elite talking points.

but i live in maryland

elizabeth warren is not hillary clinton, donald fucking trump doesn't have any "anti-elite" arguments to make against her

yeah idk i think harvard lawyer who claimed to be a minority hire ticks a couple boxes on the right wing cultural grievance bingo.

cool identity politics bro

not saying this is valid btw,

i live in tennessee and i can tell you 100%: fuck these redneck trump assholes forever who gives a shit what they think

Yeah, if Bernie were the nominee they'd go to town with anti-semitic dog whistling. No sense in worrying about them.

otfm

yeah idk i think harvard lawyer who claimed to be a minority hire ticks a couple boxes on the right wing cultural grievance bingo.

― dsb, Saturday, November 2, 2019

wait till the Bernie-is-a-Jew-who-wants-your-money line takes off again, bro.

xps - falsity can easily be conveyed by omission and oversimplification.

for example, you cited the fact that Warren did work for Dow Chemical, obviously implying that this fact is by itself is somehow illuminating about her character, her political record, her policy goals, or her system of beliefs in 2019. I notice you failed to mention the Dow Chemical bankruptcy was filed in 1995. Do you think that the elapse of 25 years maybe could be significant? Or did it even occur to you to figure out anything past 'Dow is bad, so she is bad'?

this is only slightly more substantive than the 'Pocahontas' shit, meaning 'nearly worthless except as a cudgel to beat her with'.

I find it significant. if you think what a candidate did in their professional career 25 years ago is totally irrelevant thats fine, but in this case i don't feel that way. if we are discussing weather warren will stand up against extremely intense institutional political and corporate pressure to fight for progressive policy i think her career history especially an example of which involves healthcare and corporate law is a pretty fucking valid point of contention.

but in her defense the

i live in tennessee and i can tell you 100%: fuck these redneck trump assholes forever who gives a shit what they think

yeah I mean it’s not like she could have learned from the experience, nor determined to stick more forthrightly to her principles in the subsequent couple of decades

but in her defense the

kinda wild that east TN was a hotbed of anti-Confederate sentiment 150 years ago and now it’s the Trumpiest place on earth

i'm in hermitage, home of trump's hero

yeah I mean it’s not like she could have learned from the experience, nor determined to stick more forthrightly to her principles in the subsequent couple of decades

If ILX political discussions have taught us anything it's that no one ever learns anything or changes.

If ILX political discussions have taught us anything

if we are discussing weather warren will stand up against extremely intense institutional political and corporate pressure to fight for progressive policy i think her career history especially an example of which involves healthcare and corporate law is a pretty fucking valid point of contention.

― dsb, 2. november 2019 20:08 (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think more things has happened in her career, no? A lot of which involve corporate law...

ok, yes. but this is the one we were currently talking about. here is an article filled with some of warren's other questionably progressive career and political history. https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/10/why-criticize-warren?fbclid=IwAR1i4XyTYGmaiq5GI-k_9uJez6T6SNmtT6Gc1rV_62LqtrOx9qk4NWGn-YM

But the only reason why we were talking about this is because you brought it up. And now you introduce currentaffairs into this, as if that doesn't just make it worse?

y'now dsb, just you could save time by posting the anti-warren playbook at once instead of doling it out in monthly dribbles

idk worse in what way? do you want to talk about the content of it? i brought it up in reply to alfred posting a twitter thread in defense of her actions in the case against something that Kamela said.

Warren literally proposed the establishment of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and we're supposed to look at a couple meetings from 95 to see what she thinks about consumers and financial institutions?

^^^

hey dsb, how about we drop this, man

xp: im not saying she is all bad, or hasn't accomplished anything, she's my second choice in this race, but a distant second. i have real fears about her electability, and i view her ideologically as fundamentally technocratic would be compromiser. In the article Robinson discusses the formation of the CFB and her bringing in several big bank corporate people:

The centerpiece of Warren’s pro-consumer record is her role in setting up the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. But when Warren was advising the establishment of that agency, she brought in people like Raj Date, an executive formerly of CapitalOne and DeutscheBank. Catherine West, former head of CapitalOne’s credit card business, was brought in, along with the chief counsel of Sprint. Warren appointed Sartaj Alag, another CapitalOne executive, as one of her personal advisers. Warren’s chief of staff in the CFPB period, Wally Adeyemo, immediately went to enrich himself as a BlackRock executive afterward. Warren appears to have seen the hiring of industry “big shots” as desirable rather than as a case of the fox being asked to guard the hen house. The kind of “revolving door” politics Warren deplores on the campaign trail is one that she herself may have been intimately involved with at the CFPB.

*fart*

nice one

def shouldn't hire anyone with finance experience to work at the consumer financial protection bureau