2020 Democratic presidential primary

In my last encounter with them, they took all the work done by one of my smartest female colleagues, stuck it on a McKinsey PowerPoint template, and claimed several million dollars for showing it to the board.

Value Added

re:

Kind of hilarious that at this point the great hope of the major Dem donors is the mayor of the forth largest city in Indiana.

the town pete buttigieg has mayor'd for seven years has a population smaller than the 40th largest city in texas, and the 72nd in california. the fact that he ever entered this conversation is completely baffling

— Christopher Hooks (@cd_hooks) October 30, 2019

good grooming counts for a lot, I guess

I'll be surprised if his polling bounce ends up lasting.

don't what the polling bounce is, it's behind the 12,517 post fold

I like Harris a lot, she’s maybe not that politically savvy yet but is generous and gave a lot of the fundraising money left over from her last Senate campaign to support down-ticket democrats

Only two more months til the poll closes and we can start a new thread

the defining demographic difference at my caucus location in 2016 between Clinton/Sanders supporters seemed to be age more than anything else, and even that wasn’t that striking

a lot of the party wonk types, including the precinct organizers, were in the slim O’Malley minority in the room

Kinda doubt this will work, probably too late for her to pull votes from the left
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/468666-harris-swipes-at-warren-i-have-never-represented-a-corporation

If Harris believes that twaddle, she's a fool.

Its just opportunism

By which I mean I dont think she believes it, but pundits/consultants think voters might believe it since its a similar line to what worked against hillary

What twaddle are not supposed to believe? when Warren was hired by Dow Chemical as part of the defense team in a breast implant lawsuit it was actually to make sure that the woman who had been made sick by the implants were adequately financially compensated? yeah idk.

Well, I didn't know what to think, but if dsb is pushing it, it is definitely disingenuous crap

cool thanks, go ahead and make any sort of substantive point or just attack the messenger?

The only relevant attack on your message should be obvious: It's worthless without a link. It's so obvious I don't get why anyone would bother making it. And since you keep doing the same thing over and over, it's even less worth a damn to make the same obvious point over and over and over. So the most relevant thing is actually to say, that you're a shit messenger.

Like, 'you're not trustworthy' is actually a very good response, which isn't accurately responded to with the usual message/messenger cliché. Like, you don't actually deserve substantive counterpoints just by showing up and writing stupid stuff. Like.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/dow-breast-implant-case-spotlights-elizabeth-warrens-work-helping-big-corporations-navigate-bankruptcies/2019/07/15/06b0d676-82fc-11e9-95a9-e2c830afe24f_story.html?noredirect=on

“She was on the wrong side of the table,” said Sybil Goldrich, who co-founded a support group for women with implants and battled the companies for years. Goldrich said Dow Corning and its parent “used every trick in the book” to limit the size of payouts to women. The companies, she added, “were not easy to deal with at all.”
A person familiar with Warren’s role who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe litigation strategy said the future senator was part of a Dow defense team that had containing the company’s liability as a goal.

"deserve substantive counterpoints just by showing up and writing stupid stuff. Like."

Well, I didn't know what to think, but if dsb is pushing it, it is definitely disingenuous crap

― Frederik B, Saturday, November 2, 2019 3:55 PM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A+ good job

A defense: https://www.creditslips.org/creditslips/2019/07/elizabeth-warren-the-dow-corning-bankruptcy-nothing-to-see.html

I find there are times when "consider the source" has a value in making a judgment.

Did y'all know Warren was a Republican

holy shit

i just read the economist for the first time in a good while. they (always forget about how they DON'T sign their own posts like it's a fucking email) identify two "dubious philosophies" about warren's agenda. the first is "her faith in government as benign and effective."

the other dubious philosophy is a vilification of business. she underrates the dynamic power of markets to help middle-class Americans, invisibly guiding the diverse and spontaneous actions of people and firms, moving capital and labour from dying industries to growing ones and innovating at the expense of lazy incumbents. Without that creative destruction, no amount of government action can raise long-term living standards.

i feel like i just washed out my mouth with soap from the lobby bathroom of a private equity firm

Yeah, the wapo coverage has been bullshit all along, and widely mocked. So. Dsb vmic.

whereas "Credit slips" and some trial lawyer on twitter are excelent reliable sources. i don't know what vmic is? look I'm just a simple country not a lawyer but i think Warren working for Dow probably means she was working on their behalf and not the Victims.

Vmic = Very much in character. And you are pretty clearly misunderstanding what the story is if you think Warren was 'working for Dow'. They consulted her a couple of times on bankruptcy proceedings, as she was one of the biggest experts on bankruptcy law in the country.

are we discussing if "consulted for" or worked for are substantially different? "she was one of the biggest experts on bankruptcy law in the country." that doesn't necessarily seem like much of a plus in my book.

"she was one of the biggest experts on bankruptcy law in the country." that doesn't necessarily seem like much of a plus in my book.

would your opinion change if you knew what her views were on bankruptcy law, or who she was trying to help? or is just being connected to the topic at all a negative?

keep in mind that there are plenty of environmental advocates who are experts on fracking

warren has been pretending to fight for the working class for the past 2 decades just to sneak into the presidency at age 71 and then rip off the mask

oops, i missed the context of the posts upthread, sorry

"keep in mind that there are plenty of environmental advocates who are experts on fracking" yeah well probably aren't often asked to be consultants for Exxon.

"she was one of the biggest experts on bankruptcy law in the country." that doesn't necessarily seem like much of a plus in my book.

― dsb, 2. november 2019 17:55 (twenty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is so crazy I have to laugh.

"warren has been pretending to fight for the working class for the past 2 decades just to sneak into the presidency at age 71 and then rip off the mask"

no just represent a slightly more palatable to the PMC version of an actual Working class movement.

I for one am now fully supportive of Sanders' unsullied career path.

Nobody is saying Warren was a consumer advocate in the nineties, are they? The 'conversion' moment is supposed to be the anti-bankruptcy bill in 2005, where she realized the system was broken. Her working before that to create a compromise which 94% of the consumers were in favor of seems absolutely in character, no matter what the wapo is saying.

It's true, there are two choices for the left. One who has thought the same thing since the sixties, end of story. And one who went into law thinking one thing, became a leading expert in her field, then realized she had gotten things fundamentally wrong. Some might prefer the unbending mind in the first example. Others might think the second example shows an ability to learn, admit mistakes, master a field. It seems most people prefer example number two, but if you prefer number one, hey, more power to you. Though I honestly think it shows stubbornness and inflexibility. So, scratch that, no more power to you.

one of my oldest and best friends who’s a Pete stan just sent a Milton Friedman YouTube clip and says “I find some of his ideas persuasive”.

this is the smartest, most politically aware (and only left-leaning) dude I knew growing up in my mid-sized Mississippi shithole town and I just can’t even

I don't have anything against Warren really but I still think the "being wrong for decades is better, actually" logic stinks

That's not what the logic is.

This is not like Glenn Greenwald supporting the Iraq War, then becoming so distrustful of the US that he ends up helping the Russians get Trump elected. The point is that Warren has shown the ability to get smarter, which is a fundamental part of her appeal. Her constant 'I've got a plan for that' is as much about her coming up with plans in real time, as it's about her knowing all the answers.

as someone who’s had a pretty substantial political evolution Warren’s story resonates with me. tho I did most of my “evolving” between high school and turning 30.

While conversely the appeal of Sanders is supposed to be that he is right, and his rightness is so powerful that it, combined with his willingness to fight for what is right, will make everything right, no matter the obstacles all the wrong - and evil - people will throw in his way. And I have a lot of problems with that theory.

Fred is otm tbh

Milton Friedman YouTube clip and says “I find some of his ideas persuasive”.

Plz remind your friend that persuasion is very much dependent on framing, rhetorical devices, and the exclusion of contrary evidence. He should watch that clip knowing that Friedman was play acting the role of an academic, but was thinking like a high-powered corporate lawyer writing a court brief against a class action lawsuit.

combined with his willingness to fight for what is right, will make everything right, no matter the obstacles all the wrong

no one believes this

I mean, probably some of his youngest supporters do. But anyone serious knows that change will be difficult and failures will occur, as they would with Warren.

While conversely the appeal of Sanders is supposed to be that he is right, and his rightness is so powerful that it, combined with his willingness to fight

yeah, I mean this is reductio ad absurdum, but its not totally un accurate, I DO trust Bernie to actually fight for working class Issues in way that i don't trust Warren to. this has to do not just with their political histories, the fact that Bernie has been an advocate for M4all and fight for 15 for years but now they are standard democratic planck issues should count for something no? but also with the differences in how they ideologically frame the issues, who they surround themselves with and the actual differences in what they advocate for domestically and in foreign policy.

I this just naive Panglossian false hope for batter world? probably

yes the world will become batter after a while

You are better at talking up Bernie than at bashing Warren, dsb, probably because you're on more solid ground there. Just realize that diminishing the other potential Democratic nominees may look like a good idea now, but when the general election comes around and you've talked yourself into hating the eventual Democratic candidate, this won't help the outcome a bit.