i've only heard the term in reference to eve sedgwick. my apologies
― treeship., Friday, 25 October 2019 21:11 (four years ago) link
maybe men are more comfortable talking about certain issues with other men
personally I can't really think of a scenario where I would feel this way, but whatever. You could make this statement a little less universal and I'd be fine with it. I don't understand it, but am happy to acknowledge that other men might have different needs from me.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 25 October 2019 21:13 (four years ago) link
i meant to write "does a treesh bro-down..." it was a typo.
i am probably a lot more bro'y than you and have socialized homosocially often in my life (though very rarely in the last 6 or 7 years)
― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Friday, 25 October 2019 21:14 (four years ago) link
but that doesn't prevent me from thinking that exclusively male getaway retreats to be men being men together masculinely is the greatest self-help scheme
― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Friday, 25 October 2019 21:15 (four years ago) link
xp shakes, that is totally fine. to be honest, i'm not like that either--like day to day, i'm mostly with women. but i think the idea that male spaces are dominated by -- as you said -- "yr standard aggro alphamale scenario," like that's the thing that doesn't square with me experience. men are just people.
― treeship., Friday, 25 October 2019 21:15 (four years ago) link
There is definitely a brosphere that isn’t aggro and/or alpha but has an exclusionary quality when it comes to non masc ppl (ilx has similar elements)
― sarahell, Friday, 25 October 2019 22:08 (four years ago) link
I feel pretty masc but put me in a situation where there's an explicit "I don't know what phallocentric means, but NO GIRLS" sign and yeah I am instantly suspicious that someone is either about to get beaten up or everybody's gonna whip their dicks out or something
― Οὖτις, Friday, 25 October 2019 22:11 (four years ago) link
The thing is though— there are plenty of implicit signs that spaces (both physical and social and cultural) are bros only. I feel like as laws have changed, there are fewer explicit signs but the implicit ones are still there, and as an “other” sometimes the explicit signs feel more honest than the implicit ones
― sarahell, Friday, 25 October 2019 22:15 (four years ago) link
that bros only thread sucks for sure
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Friday, 25 October 2019 22:19 (four years ago) link
Like dudes talking about sports with other dudes is just the same maleness as dudes talking about modular synths with other dudes—
― sarahell, Friday, 25 October 2019 22:20 (four years ago) link
But people are gonna self-select and there is value in that. It definitely is valuable to marginalized people. I am agreeing w Treeshy
― sarahell, Friday, 25 October 2019 22:25 (four years ago) link
Yeah. Make cliques that exclude women in situations where it’s not appropriate—a workplace, a public messagebord—are no good. But i distinguish that from men getting together—i wasn’t even really thinking of active exclusion of women, but more responding to the wariness toward male closeness/bonding i was seeing in some of these posts. I don’t think that attitude is healthy for anyone.
― treeship., Friday, 25 October 2019 22:45 (four years ago) link
male closeness/bonding i was seeing in some of these posts
name names
― Οὖτις, Friday, 25 October 2019 22:51 (four years ago) link
cuz I don't think anyone was saying that. wariness towards these stupid seminars, sure, but that's not the same thing (the amount of closeness/bonding actually achieved at an Everyman seminar seems highly debatable)
― Οὖτις, Friday, 25 October 2019 22:52 (four years ago) link
Gah, I am pretty uncomfortable in male-only groups unless they include men I already know well and have things in common with. I am not very good at stereotypical dudely conversation (Uh, sports? Shooting small animals? Punching one another in the arm?).
- anonymous
― treeship., Friday, 25 October 2019 22:53 (four years ago) link
There was others too. It was mostly in the tone—like other men are some foreign species
― treeship., Friday, 25 October 2019 22:56 (four years ago) link
other men have cooties
― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Friday, 25 October 2019 22:59 (four years ago) link
they're from Mars iirc
― Οὖτις, Friday, 25 October 2019 23:03 (four years ago) link
is this basically just american men we're talkin about, is this that thing again
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Friday, 25 October 2019 23:09 (four years ago) link
just american and irish.
― Yerac, Friday, 25 October 2019 23:16 (four years ago) link
and especially irish americans
― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Friday, 25 October 2019 23:17 (four years ago) link
amen to that latter
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Friday, 25 October 2019 23:18 (four years ago) link
Yeah this take that men occasionally hanging out with just other men is automatically “creepy” is totally weird to me and I don’t really understand why a bunch of smart people are making these cartoonish assumptions about what that really ~is~. Men, like women, can feel a certain openness around just each other and it for real can be something other than a dumb frat/sports-bro/incel/Promise Keepers/masculinity re-affirmation.Treesh OTM. Also sarahell.
― circa1916, Saturday, 26 October 2019 00:13 (four years ago) link
some ppl itt have only ever met stupid men its good reading if nothing else
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Saturday, 26 October 2019 00:14 (four years ago) link
Being a kid in a pretty stoic, conservative environment and occasionally having my dad drag me along to events like building a shed over a weekend on my uncle’s piece of land out in the sticks with a few other guys (for one traditionally masc. example) was generally... really cool. Got to see a certain easiness, camaraderie, and (most significantly) tenderness from these guys that I never got to fully witness outside of a situation like that.Yeah ideally everyone would feel just as open to people that are not like themselves, but we’re here and these avenues can be really healthy and edifying. Even to, y’know, men.
― circa1916, Saturday, 26 October 2019 01:08 (four years ago) link
it's weird to jump to 'exclusion' when talking about hanging out with just men. someone isn't really "excluded" unless they want to be a part of said activity and we purposefully don't invite them, or we tell them they're not welcome.
A group of men hanging out together doesn't mean women were "excluded" per se. Someone isn't inherently excluded any time we decide who we want to hang out with.
― When I am afraid, I put my toast in you (Neanderthal), Saturday, 26 October 2019 01:12 (four years ago) link
I hate 'bro culture' as much as the next and often hang in mixed groups, but hanging out with a group of other men with like interests every now and then isn't going to turn us into incels.
and it isn't always intentional. sometimes you invite people from all walks and only guy friends show up. it's whatever. I like hanging out with people that I like.
― When I am afraid, I put my toast in you (Neanderthal), Saturday, 26 October 2019 01:15 (four years ago) link
Is there a name for invariably feeling like a dude but not really caring about what that supposedly means? I'm speaking for myself and myself only – there are obvious reasons to be anything but indifferent to such matters if you're experiencing gender dysphoria, for example.
― pomenitul
gender-anomic?
― Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Saturday, 26 October 2019 01:50 (four years ago) link
why would you want to talk about modular synths instead of just playing the modular synths. in an ideal world everyone everywhere on the gender spectrum would be playing modular synths together and never talking about them
― Lucky Pierre Delecto (crüt), Saturday, 26 October 2019 02:33 (four years ago) link
― When I am afraid, I put my toast in you (Neanderthal)
I was sure you were going to say "Neanderthals" instead of "incels" and had a laugh when I read who posted it.
― nickn, Saturday, 26 October 2019 03:03 (four years ago) link
i realize me bruvas aren't as advanced as the Magnons but fuck them and their frisbees!
― When I am afraid, I put my toast in you (Neanderthal), Saturday, 26 October 2019 03:05 (four years ago) link
according to a dna test, I’ve got an above average amount of neanderthal dna. how it came into my possession, don’t need to know
― mh, Saturday, 26 October 2019 03:25 (four years ago) link
why would you want to talk about modular synths instead of just playing the modular synths.
why would you want to talk about which album by a band is better than other albums by the same band, or assign numerical ranking to songs by bands and artists, rather than just ... listening to music?
― sarahell, Sunday, 27 October 2019 18:55 (four years ago) link
drag em sarahell
― deems of internment (darraghmac), Sunday, 27 October 2019 22:51 (four years ago) link
Lol
― treeship., Sunday, 27 October 2019 22:54 (four years ago) link
I would like to congratulate myself for not posting a long confessional post i drafted about how I am afraid I’ve undervalued my male friendships through the years
― treeship., Sunday, 27 October 2019 22:58 (four years ago) link
Future biographers would have loved that shit but no dice
― treeship., Sunday, 27 October 2019 22:59 (four years ago) link
Future biographers? As in you in 10 years?
― sarahell, Sunday, 27 October 2019 23:11 (four years ago) link
Hope not. If i ever write a book, I think I need a better subject.
― treeship., Sunday, 27 October 2019 23:14 (four years ago) link
sometimes you come upon the work, sometimes the work comes to you
― mh, Sunday, 27 October 2019 23:22 (four years ago) link
treeship is actually a celebrity already, but which one?
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 27 October 2019 23:26 (four years ago) link
Tony Robbins
― When I am afraid, I put my toast in you (Neanderthal), Sunday, 27 October 2019 23:29 (four years ago) link
It’s hilarious you guys haven’t realized I’m lindsay lohan
― treeship., Sunday, 27 October 2019 23:33 (four years ago) link
The Teaches of Treeshes
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Sunday, 27 October 2019 23:37 (four years ago) link
omg
― Le Bateau Ivre, Sunday, 27 October 2019 23:45 (four years ago) link
sarahell can you say more about why wanting “to talk about which album by a band is better than other albums by the same band, rather than just ... listening to music?” is masculine? Is it that making quality judgments is masculine, that discourse itself is masculine, or something else?
― L'assie (Euler), Monday, 28 October 2019 00:04 (four years ago) link
To jump in and mansplain for a second, i don’t think she was saying that.
― treeship., Monday, 28 October 2019 00:05 (four years ago) link
some sort of hierarchy (preferably a ballot-driven ranking system) is necessary in order for people to be able to understand my important opinions
― Lucky Pierre Delecto (crüt), Monday, 28 October 2019 00:16 (four years ago) link
― sarahell
when i hear something i like i want to share it with other people. just saying "here, listen to this" doesn't work with most of the people i know, though. so i wind up talking about music i like, and i don't know how to do that without comparing it to other music. polls, ranked lists, i'm not fond of this sort of advocacy of Monoculture, of canon-making, of endless fodder for stupid facebook arguments along the lines of "there's no way that record is only as good as #53!", of men making every goddamn thing into a Competition about which One is Best. having the pretext to talk about music at all, though, that i like.
― Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Monday, 28 October 2019 00:42 (four years ago) link
IDK if this is exactly the right thread, but I've found myself in this weird limbo in the last 10 years where I like sports enough that I sometimes feel like watching, yet not enough to devote the kind of time needed to speak *fluently* about what's currently going on in them. So, e.g., I decided to watch game 5 of the WS last night and I briefly joined a conversation about it, and I can talk about the game itself but then as soon as anything goes beyond that (e.g. which pitcher previously played for who and what their career has been like) I'm suddenly mute and it probably looks obvious that I'm not a *real* sports fan. I work in a very male dominated field and it would honestly probably help me out to just be a little more able to talk sports, but whenever I try to I wind up feeling like I just look dumb.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 28 October 2019 18:51 (four years ago) link