eh, take it to the Star Wars thread
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:18 (four years ago) link
I mean they're just going to wind up burning themselves with that shit ultimately, particularly as they continue to lean heavier on regurgitation of their own supply. Cut to five years from now as tumbleweeds drift through a multiplex
Independent theaters will have been killed by then.
― now let's play big lunch take little lunch (sic), Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:23 (four years ago) link
re: engaging w/the material, i myself enjoy the films despite my issues with them but the manner in which they've taken over the movie culture (and to a lesser extent, Star Wars films have done the same thing and i guess maybe on second thought we should count our blessings that Solo was a failure and the second of the new trilogy didn't "do well" i.e. didn't make five billion dollars) is a bummer. would i have a problem w/them if i didn't feel like they were a negative on what films are getting made? or at least part of a larger problem in terms of moviemaking? not really. my aesthetic concerns would remain the same but as movies they're not any more offensive than your average blockbusters of yore.
I also don't think Scorsese is wrong (he says much the same thing Meirelles says, just a bit more pointedly and again i think it's just because he likes to talk and will keep going if you give him an opening, and i think he did it out of love). i guess i don't find them particularly moving or thought-provoking. what they succeed at is they are exceptionally made products and sleek and nice to look at and they're occasionally very, very well cast, especially Hemsworth. (again, Ragnarok is a really excellent film, Marvel or no. It manages to stand alone too, which is to its credit. It helps to see the earlier films but it's one where you can maybe get away with just seeing this one).
― omar little, Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:31 (four years ago) link
he says much the same thing Meirelles says, just a bit more pointedly
This just isn't true!
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:43 (four years ago) link
oh i think it is i think FM was being just a bit diplomatic, but it's fine really, the MCU has weathered a lot of storms and while i feel bad that noted Scorsese collaborator Jon Favreau feels not-great about the comments, i also think w/the current climate in the film industry ol Marty can sigh a bit over the films' influence.
anyway i do actually have ENDGAME on hold at the library, looking forward to how events wrap up!
― omar little, Thursday, 24 October 2019 22:01 (four years ago) link
He didn't sigh a bit over their influence, he said "that's not cinema"!
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Thursday, 24 October 2019 22:03 (four years ago) link
endgame’s the only one i’ve seenthere were two good jokes iirc and hulk’s mouth was weird
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 24 October 2019 22:05 (four years ago) link
Sighing a bit is a good way to describe it. He didn't declare war or call the creators or consumers immoral for doing their thing. He was just "jeez...ugh...yknow?"
― Galangal Baker (WmC), Thursday, 24 October 2019 22:07 (four years ago) link
i mean by his definition they're not cinema and i'm not going to strictly disagree but again that's okay, the MCU will survive and some people including myself find enjoyment in them.
― omar little, Thursday, 24 October 2019 22:07 (four years ago) link
Meanwhile (as they say in comics) — looks like Hailee Steinfeld’s role in an Apple series may be holding up her acceptance of the Kate Bishop part: https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/hailee-steinfeld-interview-hawkeye-disney-plus-dickinson-apple-1203378527/
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Friday, 25 October 2019 03:14 (four years ago) link
what if — hear me out — this take is exactly backwards, and it's actually the triumphal simplicity of this stuff that's helped convert a subset of admirers into blinkered anti-social wannabe crusaders who have in fact made the world demonstrably more unsettling pic.twitter.com/TZW0ZjmehZ— Nitsuh Abebe (@ntabebe) October 24, 2019
― j., Friday, 25 October 2019 04:49 (four years ago) link
damn idk who nabisco’s quoting there but that is a colossally stupid take
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Friday, 25 October 2019 04:55 (four years ago) link
https://media.giphy.com/media/iGMTtx1VmHmZFhwDxX/giphy.gif
― difficult listening hour, Friday, 25 October 2019 05:12 (four years ago) link
based on this argument, there should have been lines around the block for Dark Phoenix. Explain.
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Friday, 25 October 2019 05:34 (four years ago) link
Again, when you adopt a broad brush approach to any subject, you can generalize to the point where nothing you say is entirely untrue but neither is it especially meaningful. Like, in what way has popular entertainment (children's or otherwise) become ever more infantilizing, exactly? Is there a strain of hyper-erudite pop culture from the past several decades that I somehow failed to notice? What specific works are under discussion here? Because just referring to eg 'cartoons and comics' is like...you might as well issue sweeping proclamations about 'music'.
They both have a point but either take is great, tbh (the rare not-quite-OTM!). The simplicity of the stuff nabisco speaks of (again, the simplicity of what, precisely) isn't at issue as much as the erosion of critical distance among segments of the audience. This is just the pearl-clutching discussion of The Joker all over again, though. If people are transformed in some measurable way by, say, a superhero movie, that shit doesn't happen in a vacuum and it's not because the movie has some special transmogrifying power which thwarts all attempts at resistance.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 12:04 (four years ago) link
If anything, these types of entertainment seem to have the most deleterious effect upon those who attempt to criticize them.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 12:08 (four years ago) link
Big props to Doc C upthread, though, who actually made the effort to hone in on specific aspects of the MCU and reckon with it on its own terms with some legit + valid criticism. I don't get why it's so hard for so many other people to do likewise.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 12:14 (four years ago) link
Oh cool, the argument has reached batshit right wing cartoons phase:
pic.twitter.com/jQSP8TFaZ9— John Campea (@johncampea) October 24, 2019
― Pauline Male (Eric H.), Friday, 25 October 2019 12:18 (four years ago) link
That’s no way to talk about the mcu
― YouGov to see it (wins), Friday, 25 October 2019 12:20 (four years ago) link
So batshit reactions from the fringes of an internet discussion are still reliably batshit. Good to know that there are still some things you can count on in this crazy world!
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 12:49 (four years ago) link
"on its own terms" is a loaded phrase though, OL. it seems like you're responding to dr C's knowledge of comics - which for you lends weight to his criticism of the cinematic MCU - i.e. he's criticizing these movies on their "own terms". but i don't know anything about the comics. neither do my kids. they, and i, experience them primarily as movies (despite all the other happy meal tie-ins or whatever). "the movies" seems like a pretty valid frame of reference for somebody like me, or even a movie director, to use. anyway I'm kind of surprised your defending them so hard - i feel like you're usually pretty hard to please when it comes to this stuff!
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:11 (four years ago) link
i'm probably just still sore from when you comprehensively dismantled every reason i thought i had for loving Solo
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:16 (four years ago) link
to be clear my beefs with the Marvel movies are mostly to do with them sometimes being lame and forgettable movies, followed by them often being cryptofascist. tho maybe my knowledge of the comics reminds me of how truly fantastic they could potentially be. i also loathed solo, but equally as a movie and as a work of star wars product.
― weird ilx but sb (Doctor Casino), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:26 (four years ago) link
xp misread that as "Salo" and was about to jump in
― Pauline Male (Eric H.), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:27 (four years ago) link
I'm responding more to Dr. C's willingness to criticize elements of the films themselves in terms of what they're actually trying to achieve. The basis of his critique about the role of Vision, for instance, is all there on the screen and doesn't require any knowledge of the comics themselves.
I don't feel like I'm defending the movies themselves as hard as I'm challenging nebulous criticisms of 'the MCU' or 'superhero movies' built around abstract notions of what these movies are or what they supposedly represent. I think they're great fun but I don't in any way think they're above criticism! I just personally value when the critic is able to signal that they've experienced the object of inquiry with their actual sense apparatus.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:33 (four years ago) link
(Which is not to say that I exactly consider 'oooh, it hurt my ears/eyes!' the apex of criticism.)
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:35 (four years ago) link
Dr Casino’s post literally started with “wins otm”, so presumably at least some of my criticisms would have been “legit + valid” if I’d only taken care to precede them with “I enjoy these films but”
― YouGov to see it (wins), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:50 (four years ago) link
I'm not calling out anyone in particular itt, fwiw. There just seems to be a rising tide of critics (and defenders!) who are engaging on more of a notional level without ever really getting into the weeds.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:55 (four years ago) link
Solo was good! It had a lot in common with Ragnarok, actually... right down to the Hulk/Chewie meet-cute.
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Friday, 25 October 2019 13:57 (four years ago) link
Like okay here: I was really put out by the most recent Spider-Man film's unwillingness to deal seriously with the ramifications of such a radically-altered post-Endgame world. In more skilled hands, the notion of half the population suddenly finding themselves transported years into their own future would be a rich sci-fi vein to tap, so the 'weird! (*shrug*)' treatment of that scenario in Far From Home was kind of a wet fart, imo.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:02 (four years ago) link
whenever i say “i heard it’s not very good” about anything now my kids pipe up in chorus: “that’s what you said about Solo!!”
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:03 (four years ago) link
the spider-man movies aren’t SF iirc - wishing they were is sort of unreasonable
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:05 (four years ago) link
I'm not expecting a Spidey flick to be a ponderous philosophical treatise or anything but I would appreciate if it felt more firmly rooted in the pre-established world in which it's set.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:13 (four years ago) link
Also Tracer you may be confusing me with someone else as I never actually saw Solo (although I groused plenty about its existence, hypocrite that I am).
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:14 (four years ago) link
pretty sure this is a marvel film, really impressed by the mid-trailer TWISThttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSYjORgaRn4
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:14 (four years ago) link
omg OL i’m sorry! i guess it was a traumatic enough takedown that it fried my memory synapses
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:22 (four years ago) link
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:37 (four years ago) link
also wtf Solo is terrible
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:38 (four years ago) link
I enjoyed it!
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:39 (four years ago) link
Solo, or the 12 Parsecs of Kessel
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:40 (four years ago) link
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:46 (four years ago) link
I thought the two main actors were great, especially the guy who played Han
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Friday, 25 October 2019 14:49 (four years ago) link
Solo was not great or terrible. The kid was terrible, but Woody was great and it was more fun that I expected. About 20 minutes longer than it needed to be though.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 25 October 2019 15:01 (four years ago) link
Yeah, I would’ve cut down the “assault on the train” scene. I’m prejudiced against Woody Harrelson; I never know if he’s actually good or not!
― drunk on hot toddies (morrisp), Friday, 25 October 2019 15:10 (four years ago) link
agreed w/ OL about the five-year "blip" tho i guess they painted themselves into a corner by having the first post-Endgame movie be the one we expect to be a lighthearted comedy. don't need deep philosophizing, but man if there's one thing marvel "event" comics can do well, it's creating a new weird wonky status quo (like idk "norman osborne's in charge and all the official teams are full of villains!") that people have to actually deal with and write around and treat as important for at least a couple years of comics. half the universe dying and then coming back having missed five years is one of the craziest, wildest, far-outest concepts ('nuff said, true believers!) to ever land in a blockbuster film --- but beyond 20 minutes of people being sad in "endgame" it never feels like a thing that really happened, there's no imagination put into exploring that, or willingness to take the audience into a world they don't basically recognize (see also: how all the bizarre supertechnology never really changes anything about society, about which i think i've kvetched before). even halfway through endgame, the hulk is taking selfies with fans in a diner. there are still *diners* with half the world dead? gee, guess thanos was right, we really didn't miss anything - and tony stark was able to get his dream cabin for a steal!
― weird ilx but sb (Doctor Casino), Friday, 25 October 2019 15:12 (four years ago) link
It's not dissimilar to the question of why denizens of the comics universe wouldn't have an entirely different relationship with mortality from those of us for whom death is an actual permanent thing with no takebacks. Why even open that crazy crazy door if you aren't going to explore the consequences of doing so.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 15:31 (four years ago) link
I'm still unsure whether making the Hulk into the most pathetic, not good at being Hulk or Banner, version was incredibly lame or the best character sabotage
― mh, Friday, 25 October 2019 15:32 (four years ago) link
I do at least appreciate that the MCU has (thus far) treated death by anything other than Infinity Gems as a done deal.
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Friday, 25 October 2019 15:33 (four years ago) link
There's an irony that for 40(?) years, the one exception to the revolving door was Bucky, the only one to come 'back from the dead' in the MCU (pre-Endgame)
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 25 October 2019 15:53 (four years ago) link
I just personally value when the critic is able to signal that they've experienced the object of inquiry with their actual sense apparatus.
this is a privilege reserved for cinematic works, what's the need to get the ol sense apparatus in front of a screen and scribble in the notebook with the light pen when the world is thronging with people who have had their sense apparatuses in front of the screens and the thing the apparatus sensed was a chaos of cgi floating in space
which is the whole point of the criticism of the plotting and the franchising and the endless remythologization behind these movies! that stuff takes the pressure off the aesthetic emptiness of the movies by no longer needing it to be a route to make sense of actual writing, since the story material that is conveyed by the experience of the screen is already so pre-interpreted and packaged for the audience that they ~already know~ what they're seeing when they see it and when they leave the theater everybody already knows what everybody saw
― j., Friday, 25 October 2019 16:08 (four years ago) link