Open for Business: Canadian Politics 2019

The danger with the current system is a more extreme leader hijacking the whole party (as Ford did, and Bernier nearly did) and the moderates going along for the win instead. I do find it interesting that the post Morton there doesn’t even touch on the idea that some of their lost support might have stayed home because Scheer was actually too moderate. Unfortunately my gut tells me it’s a thing.

Mortem. Autocorrect.

aside from last time around (when Trudeau supposedly energized everyone) it was the highest turnout this century, which surprised me. Most people I know were just generally disgusted with it all.

I think more people voted because many expected it to be close so individual ridings become more important. I don't think it's because people were particularly enthusiastic.

that survey sucked so much...prop rep could set a threshold (in BC the referendum set it at 5%) that would have kept the PPC out, but it's true that it's possible they could have received more votes in a new system. personally i think the trade off of representing progressive and leftist voters fairly would be worth it

The questions were pretty vague for sure. I’m not surprised the results were contradictory.

Maybe you’re right about that trade off. However perhaps Canada’s success to date has a lot to do with the way our system and “happy medium” culture tempers extremism. I’m worried changing that will change the best parts of what we are. Once the need to include everyone under the big tents goes away, I can’t see how our current culture continues. Having such diversity might cease to be a strength if people are freed to stick to specialized agendas.

They would need to work together to govern anyway. But I just don't think the current system delivers results that fairly represent the vote in a multi-party system so that is the bottom line for me, regardless of whether the right parties get represented. (And it's not like the current system stopped the Bloc or the Alliance, nor is fptp an obstacle for extreme Republicans to our south. I don't think there is any real evidence that New Zealand or Sweden have more extremist Parliaments - and PR wouldn't even be my 1st choice.)

That said, empowering MPs would be a much higher priority for me.

Curiously, the new Parliament actually does seem fairly representative so idk.

id kill for mmp.

of course while i thought the grits weaseled out of electoral reform it actually isn't really something that people care about afaict (referendum in bc about it had super low votes and was defeated by the status quo)

Curiously, the new Parliament actually does seem fairly representative so idk.

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Thursday, October 24, 2019 11:33 AM (thirty-three minutes ago)

ndp have half the percentage of seats in the house of commons than they have percentage of the popular vote tho

Not sure NZ or Sweden are truly comparable though. It seems that as nations they are fairly natural entities, that can stand the fragmentation, as opposed to us - a relatively fragile and disparate golem of a country that is pretty much held together by magic. Some level of strong-armed compromise seems part of what it is to be Canadian. If we start being completely “fair” we might find ourselves inadvertently disintegrated into piles on the floor.

Ha, I was going to say something about how incredible it is to listen to 'alienated' Western Canadians complain about being dominated and controlled by Quebec at the same time that Quebec nationalists complain about being stifled by English Canada. Even Ujjal Dosanjh, of all people, weighed in on the former side.

xp. no nation is natural. fptp approaches letting the leaders of the major parties play rock paper scissors for power at times, which doesn't really sit well with me. although of course foucaldian analysis of power would show me that more representative systems are still dictatorial!

of course while i thought the grits weaseled out of electoral reform it actually isn't really something that people care about afaict (referendum in bc about it had super low votes and was defeated by the status quo)

There was a similar referendum, on MMP specifically, in ON in 07, with a similar result.

Interestingly, the criticism I often hear of ranked choice voting, which would be how I lean, is if anything that it favours moderates and centrists. Ireland's leading parties tend that way iirc?

ireland's two main parties are tories whose grandads fought on different sides in the civil war

The results of proportional systems do seem more fun, admittedly.

in scotland our mpp system was specifically designed so that there wouldn't be majorities and the administrations would be coalitions. the nationalists managed to get a majority (they've lost it since). kind of like super winning an election

Lol: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2019/10/wexit-movement-inspired-by-how-smoothly-brexit-is-going/

controversial opinion: the best thing for the left is not electoral reform but to accept duvergers law and merge ndp + libs/dissolve ndp and green. it’s dumb for 2-3 parties to split the centre-left vote and constantly risk giving conservatives wins. fptp creates the incentive for ndp to converge to the centre; they could probably be more left as the left-wing of a more powerful liberal party in a 2-party system. just accept it and try to turn the libs left from within like bernie liz aoc & co are doing w the dems

And the NDP Socialist Caucus just take a good hard look in the mirror

try to turn the libs left from within like bernie liz aoc & co are doing w the dems

the jury is still very much out on whether or not this will ever be at all effective

anyway I'd rather not dissolve the one party with historical ties to unions and socialist orgs thanks

I really can't imagine looking at the two-party system and thinking "we should be more like that"

it’s dumb for 2-3 parties to split the centre-left vote and constantly risk giving conservatives wins.

I might agree in a universe where the Liberal Party had a hard time winning elections in Canada?

I basically agree with Simon on this, although I'm up for hearing the argument as to why merging every left party is better than electoral reform:

I really can't imagine looking at the two-party system and thinking "we should be more like that"

And NB that the US at least has a lot of checks and balances here: competitive primaries, a higher level of autonomy for individual Congressmen, separation between the executive and legislative branches. I don't see this as good for democracy at all in a Parliamentary system.

Interestingly, if we look at the 84 years since the CCF first competed in a federal election in 1935, the PM has been a Liberal for about 60 of those years. However, 19 of the 24 Tory years took place during my lifetime (the last 40 years), meaning we've moved towards a more even balance between those two parties.

I guess maybe your point is that the actual centre is somewhere near the current Liberal Party, so if the NDP and Greens united with the Liberals and pulled them left, the Conservatives would also move to the left to chase that centre, so we'd have two parties we could be happier with?

I wonder if the centre could ever be occupied by a fiscally restrained, socially left party. The most reasonable conservatives seem to be of the sort that get most upset over big govt inefficiency and running endless deficits but don’t give a shit what people do otherwise. Sometimes that’s a cover for more nefarious beliefs, but not always. It’d be a shame if it really is impossible to have both.

More fiscally restrained and socially liberal than Chrétien/Martin?

I guess there is a warped perception of how different the existing parties are in this regard (like, they aren’t really, are they?) but i don’t think I heard anyone on the left even mention it this election. Just saying there’s a market that wants to hear it.

I might agree in a universe where the Liberal Party had a hard time winning elections in Canada?

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Thursday, October 24, 2019 11:01 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Stephen Harper was pm for almost 10 years, conservatives won a plurality or votes this election... idg the complacency

that's only an issue because of fptp (thread ouroboros)

Stephen Harper was pm for almost 10 years, conservatives won a plurality or votes this election... idg the complacency

Well, "a hard time winning elections" <> "don't win every election". What do you anticipate under your proposed two-party system? Endless Liberal governments and an effective one-party system? It's not impossible since we actually had that for much of the 20th century (even with the CCF/NDP). That's not at all what I would regard as a democratic ideal, either, though, unless it's a situation like Sweden's, where the natural governing party has to work with others to govern. Either way, I'm actually not sure that Harper wouldn't have won after the sponsorship scandal in any case (and he was kept in check in minority government situations for five of his nine years. The oppposition e.g. forced him to implement stimulus measures in 08.) If you think the Tories would be pulled further left, that is interesting but it is not guaranteed.

the natural governing party has to work with others to govern

Pearson achieved a lot of great things, partly for this reason.

My favoured ranked ballot system might lead to Liberal domination too tbf but it would at least allow voters to have more options and would take their preferences between them into account in a fairer way imo.

Anyway, I'm sure we can all agree that this is auspicious: https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/elections/trudeau-extends-olive-branch-to-western-canada-vows-to-build-trans-mountain-despite-opposition/ar-AAJg15H?li=AAggFp5&ocid=mailsignout&fbclid=IwAR24CfHLkkjMlM7f0s8h2SNYsJSzHT-lAEk_CcwllB8-EDR9Mr85SarDYTg

ffs

i know i post this a lot, but that pipeline, will never be built

sorry for the stray comma

Idk if I've seen you post that, actually. Why? Bc BC and the FNs will win the court battles?

combination of court cases and direction action imo

direct action even. they will absolutely be blockades and the like

i mean there's absolutely a reason the liberals bought the pipeline! because it wasn't going to be built otherwise

Have they done much in terms of trying to invest in green energy in AB? That seems more worthwhile than pursuing this, which was won them exactly zero Alberta votes anyway.

Trudeau could dedicate the next two years to pleasing Alberta in every way imaginable and they would still hate him.

yeah, i mean, a lot of them hate him for buying the pipeline because they think it was a ploy to prevent it being built. there is nothing he can do for them short of having a road to damascus moment where he becomes a climate change denier and gets rid of the carbon tax

they'd still hate him.

Yep. You see this story about the Kelowna realtor criticizing Albertans and then the Albertans freaked out and that got him fired? https://www.vicnews.com/news/kelowna-realtor-fired-by-century-21-after-calling-albertans-cry-babies/#
Well, according to a certain conservative person I know, that’s all because, (let me quote)

“This is what the "progressive" left has done to people. Made us think that it is ok to punish others for expressing their opinion
...

This is what the left does to people. I like to think we’re above deplatforming people when we don’t like what they have to say.”

No irony in the post at all. This is how bad it is.

They apparently have no agency over their own behaviour.