2020 Democratic presidential primary

really are people who love Ocasio-Cortez but despise Sanders.

I know two people like this (i.e. who despise Sanders, not just people who "prefer Warren", whom I might lean towards slightly at this point).

love to hate one but not the other when their stated politics are literally identical

I liked the inclusion of Steyer. He knows he won't win but it didn't hurt that a billionaire was reinforcing that wealth needs to be taxed much more.

last night my dad said, "i think Gabbard is a Republican agent, tbh."

love to hate one but not the other when their stated politics are literally identical

― Simon H., 16. oktober 2019 15:47 (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well, yeah, but they are two very different people. I mean, you could look at 'stated politics' and there really isn't that much of a difference between Warren and Sanders either, yet there really are a lot of writers at Jacobin who think they are VERY different.

love to hate one but not the other when their stated politics are literally identical

I mean, you could look at 'stated politics' and there really isn't that much of a difference between Warren and Sanders either, yet there really are a lot of writers at Jacobin who think they are VERY different.

last night my dad said, "i think Gabbard is a Republican agent, tbh."

Bernie is not about “class identity,” he is about fighting economic inequality.

People are deciding things on a whole web of intangible and often inscrutable things, not just "stated policies" - which is why I think AOC's endorsement IS important. Policy similarity might make it seem obvious, but what about people who aren't looking primarily through that lens? (and people who *think* they are looking through that lens?)

Just like politicians who fight for racial justice are fighting oppression, not talking about racial identity.

Can we not discuss AOC in two threads, please?

I feel like real positions get filtered through this marketing language, who appeals to whom and whatever

I feel like there is like a filter on here, where a lot of posters refuse to countenance the thought that there might be voters who have an accurate idea about who Sanders is and what he stands for, and just don't like it. And not all of them are right-wing.

last night my dad said, "i think Gabbard is a Republican agent, tbh."

I feel like there is like a filter on here, where a lot of posters refuse to countenance the thought that there might be voters who have an accurate idea about who Sanders is and what he stands for, and just don't like it. And not all of them are right-wing.

We should name those people, otherwise there may be misunderstandings and talk at cross purposes

Bernie is not about “class identity,” he is about fighting economic inequality.

Up until this specific election cycle, he was all about fighting economic inequality though an astonishingly myopic lens that didn't seem to think that non-white (and particularly black) middle-class people existed and had legitimate concerns about whether his economic panacea was yet another round of taking money away non-white people who were getting ahead of the curve to help white people who were behind the curve, all at the exclusion of non-white people who were behind the curve. This is commonly interpreted as an identity issue.

He has been much, much better on this front in this election cycle but it isn't particularly shocking or surprising that some would have misgivings about the implementation of his platform given not only his own statements and actions, but also the way these programs have been implemented throughout the entirety of this country's history.

Well, anvil, you seem like one of them, sorry. And it was motivated by treeship thinking we misunderstood Bernie's thoughts on 'class identity'.

i love politics board pls

I would prefer "I Hate Politics But Really Love Picking At Scabs"

i mean that should definitely be the name

I'm reading Black Boy and it's astonishing how little has changed from the 1930s when American communists hand waved the economic worries of black Americans.

I certainly don't think that everyone would love Bernie if only they knew what he stood for. My boss, for one, half-jokingly threatened to fire anyone who votes for him because his taxes will go up.

I'm reading Black Boy and it's astonishing how little has changed from the 1930s when American communists hand waved the economic worries of black Americans.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, October 16, 2019 7:27 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

this also happens in native son and yeah not much has changed

By "astonishing" I think you mean "unsurprising"

Can we not discuss AOC in two threads, please?

She's less special than the Coen brothers?

there might be voters who have an accurate idea about who Sanders is and what he stands for, and just don't like it.

Sure. They're wrong.

One of them said she was a capitalist once!!!

I think she's keeping her bones. Hopefully not her Newthink on historical wage growth.

i mean, Wright was correct about a lot of the racism of the communist party.

he was also a snitch, and that shouldn't be forgotten

I think that's a fair criticism of American communists/leftists to a point (I take some exception to it being descended from American communists who put race at the forefront of their activism), but in what sense are liberals or centrists any better on that? Doesn't pretty much the entire spectrum of white voters have a tendency to hand wave the economic worries of black americans?

i don't think any of us are saying that liberals (lol i loathe the distortion of this word) or centrists are any better on it

Well, anvil, you seem like one of them, sorry. And it was motivated by treeship thinking we misunderstood Bernie's thoughts on 'class identity'.

― Frederik B,

No need for apologies! Clarity is preferable to inference of course. Let see if we can move forwards a little.

I feel like there is like a filter on here, where a lot of posters refuse to countenance the thought that there might be voters who have an accurate idea about who Sanders is and what he stands for, and just don't like it.

So firstly, we'll start off with countenancing the above idea. There are many voters across the political spectrum that have an accurate take on
Bernie and decide they don't like it, and there is nothing wrong with this. Hopefully we can kill off that idea

We can have accurate takes on all the candidates, including Bernie, and decided positively or negatively about them. People who prefer a particular candidate are perfectly able to do this based on an accurate reading. For some this may be based on a dislike of one or more of his policies, for others it might be his personality/character. For others it might be around identity and representation. All these reasons are valid, we don't need to suggest people don't have accurate takes in order to do this

We have Warren/Bernie people, we have Warren/Biden people, we have Warren/Kamala people (and Bernie/Warren, Bernie/BIden, maybe even Bernie/Kamala people). The range of different second choices shows the range of different lenses people view this through. None are any more valid than any other. There are other things at play than 'stated policy', psychology is a huge factor. For different types of voter different people are 'closer to' Bernie/Warren, depending on their lens. And the same is true of AOC. To you and me it is obvious that AOC and Ilhan would endorse Bernie I agree, pretty difficult to see otherwise. But through a different lens AOC and Bernie are not close together, and for some people it will be a surprise (certainly a good 10% of my colleagues will be surprised)

Does that include the very large portion of liberals and centrists who are in fact black Americans?

xxp

"what about these other people, they suck too!" ok but communists should not suck at this

xp

i loathe the distortion of this word

What do you mean by this?

Does that include the very large portion of liberals and centrists who are in fact black Americans?

say it louder for the people in the back

idk "liberal" meant something different to me ten years ago, it is now shorthand for "neoliberal" and i think it's tiresome

That's true, "progressive" have essentially replaced the old meaning of "liberal."

I remember when Obama called himself progressive. I lol'd.

Does that include the very large portion of liberals and centrists who are in fact black Americans?

say it louder for the people in the back

― brigadier pudding (DJP), Wednesday, October 16, 2019 9:41 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I made it clear I was talking about "the entire spectrum of white voters" ignoring black American economic concerns, not excluding black Americans from liberals and centrist (there were black American communists too, and a "large portion" of the left is also black)

idk "liberal" meant something different to me ten years ago, it is now shorthand for "neoliberal" and i think it's tiresome

― american bradass (BradNelson), Wednesday, October 16, 2019 9:41 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

The current usage of liberal is actually much more in line with the historic usage of liberal. Liberal briefly meant "kind of leftish" when the left had dwindled to almost nonexistence and conservatives started using "liberal" to bash people to their left.

If by "historic usage of liberal" you mean "19th century definition of liberal," then it's close to what I see from people further left.

o_O ok

xp

All I'm pointing to is that this winds up becoming a bad faith argument sometimes in the hands of liberal and centrist politicians -- " "If we broke up the big banks tomorrow would that end racism?"

If by "historic usage of liberal" you mean "19th century definition of liberal," then it's close to what I see from people further left.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, October 16, 2019 9:49 AM (twenty-four seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw

Literally everything becomes a bad faith argument for someone; that doesn't make it an invalid argument or a concern unworthy of consideration.

Sure, but saying, in a presidential primary thread "The left ignores the economic concerns of black Americans just like back in the day" seems like a distortion if the (white) left does so no more than any other (white) part of the political spectrum

yeah what about the white republicans

A couple of the more savage anti-Clinton voters in fall '16 did cover themselves in spittle while yelling on my FB wall about Hil the Corporate Shill who's dying to sell off queer people. Not once did they show their concern during the primaries. Fuck'em.

I feel I have every right to be suspicious when someone yells "break up the big banks" and I say "I agree but let's make sure we don't adversely hurt minorities in comparison to white people when we do it" and the response I get is "why does everything have to be about race"

^^^ otm

given the classes that their ideology prioritizes, the left ignoring the economic concerns of black americans stings way more than my shallow expectations for neolibs and centrists

"working class Americans" never includes "black working class Americans"