The Sopranos Vs. The Wire

Wasn't it the mob guys who ran into Christopher and Mumbles at the AA meeting that ratted out Vito? How many of these mob dudes are in rehab?!

iirc Mumbles brings it up to Chrissie at an AA meeting, yeah.

anyway my point is it's not like Vito was getting all leathered up in his backyard and some of his crew spotted him - it's considerably more roundabout than that. Which is why no one in the Sopranos family is inclined to believe it, until Meadow spills the beans and Finn provides confirmation.

I felt like the gay club scene was probably so separate from Mob World that Vito would have seen it as a kind of safe zone, no matter where it was geographically located...

I think there's something really subtle and important going on in that whole plotline -- it's not about whether they're "inclined to believe it" so much as whether there's plausible deniability for Tony to just ignore it. Tony may believe it the first time he hears it, but he doesn't care until it becomes so clearly true that he has no choice but to act. Tony is indifferent about Vito's sexuality because Vito is a good earner. This is neither a moral (i.e. tolerant for moral reasons) nor immoral stance, it's totally amoral and money-oriented. Tony is not particularly homophobic nor particularly pro-LGBTQ, he just likes money. But Phil is "old school" and homophobic (and I think it is implied maybe a closet case himself), and once the word becomes credible enough he finally accepts that something has to be done, again only because the business cost-benefit analysis has now shifted the other way, not because Tony cares much.

Well if Chase wanted to create a narrative situation in which Vito could not possibly explain it away I guess that’s what was accomplished but considering the actual life and death risks I would be more inclined to believe it if it were a, idk, low key Rawls type scenario.

Wasn't it the mob guys who ran into Christopher and Mumbles at the AA meeting that ratted out Vito? How many of these mob dudes are in rehab?!

― henry s, Tuesday, October 8, 2019 9:48 AM (fifty-one seconds ago)

they are not the same guys. they appear only in the scene with vito in the gay club

and are credited as "wise guy #1" and "wise guy #2"

yeah, and then the guy at AA heard it from some other guy etc

I do think the scene w/Vito at the construction site (?) when Finn spots him giving the dude head is meant to show that he’s engaging in some especially risky hookups considering his choice of “career” which is fine but I just didn’t buy the nightclub thing idk.

man alive otm about Tony's rationale/the plausible deniability angle

xp - I also assumed it was a combo of (1) the club was far enough away (maybe in NYC?) that it was pretty unlikely he'd run into anyone from his provincial NJ crew there (especially given that it was a gay club), and (2) he took excessive risk (e.g. the construction site, also the hubris of coming back to the area).

also didn't Rawls show up in a gay bar himself? Isn't that what the reveal was?

xp. isn't manhattan like a half hour drive from newark if the traffic is fine?

vito was being careless

but also...

they're all dumb fucking assholes and vito is no exception

the notion that the club was far enough away seems preposterous, plus he's got to know a place like that would maybe be paying protection money (iirc that's why those guys were there?) I think it was just risky behavior (albeit, imo, somewhat unbelievably risky behavior bc of his particular life). Rawls did pop up in a gay bar scene but it wasn't this over the top thing, he was just there.

Vito is an idiot of course though too.

xp. isn't manhattan like a half hour drive from newark if the traffic is fine?

― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, October 8, 2019 1:12 PM (thirty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

which is never

one of those shows that has become part of my mental furniture.

see, the Wire is like for me ... the Sopranos isn't really that memorable to me, except for like, the opening credits and some of the scenes w/the wife.

Also, the Sopranos -- again imo -- has the disadvantage of being really similar to other movies and shows on the same topic, so I will try to remember some of the scenes and plot points you mention, and end up with ... "no, wait, that was the Godfather Part 2" or "no, that was Goodfellas" ... or "no, that was actually a French crime show" ...

has the disadvantage of being really similar to other movies and shows on the same topic

lol unlike the Wire and its many cop show cliches

whereas The Wire is pretty unique and singular in what it deals with and how, in terms of scope and scale -- in terms of American shows/movies. Most everything else I've seen that is comparable is from another country and isn't in English (in terms of confusing the show with something else).

I don't find the Sopranos to be similar to other mob shows/films at all

lol unlike the Wire and its many cop show cliches

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, October 8, 2019 11:56 AM (two minutes ago)

cop show cliches like experimenting with drug legalization and the logistics of it?

The answer is still The Wire. Longevity be damned: Sopranos may have a later expiration date, but when the Wire was on, it was on, unlike any other television series. Standing the test of time vs initial impact? In this case I choose the latter, which is the Wire (despite really liking the Sopranos).

I don't find the Sopranos to be similar to other mob shows/films at all

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, October 8, 2019 11:58 AM (forty-two seconds ago)

idk, I liked it, but it was like a standard mob film crossed with a sitcom like Taxi or All in the Family ...

Sopranos was, most of all, a soap opera to me. The best I've ever seen, but a soap opera notwithstanding.

Woody Allen too

I tried hard with the Sopranos and borrowed all my dad's dvds, like 10 years ago, ready to binge it out. But I couldn't deal with all the sad sack men bitching all the time. It's not my genre.

Woody Allen is a soap opera?

sometimes combining 3 of the best things ever makes the best thing ever . art can be that simple

oic

it was an xp to sarahell

like butter, onions, and garlic

i don’t think Sopranos is a soap. i have watchEd soap operas

I think Chase's nods to those other shows and films are deliberate (I mean, the casting of Michael Imperioli alone) and anyway, the set pieces are relatively infrequent compared to what's at the shows real heart, which is an exploration of domesticity - in the narrow and broad sense of family life.

Edie Falco was really great. ... obv the nods to other stuff was deliberate, because it relied on those tropes and conventions to make its points.

Similarly, I feel like the Wire used/relied on the cop show rubric (and yeah, cliches) in order to not be a nerdy discourse on racism, urban planning and the failures of government and capitalism.

ugh "urban planning" should be "public policy"

xp Edie was extraordinary for sure. I can think of so many examples of her subtlety but her acting when Tony was in his coma was all time.

Sopranos is a story. The Wire is a lecture.

ridiculous

nonsense

this is before we even get into the sopranos looong looong nothing/nonsense arcs

i love it but its not close

i am gonna watch the sopranos this year and i expect to like it more than the wire simply bc it seems like more of my thing, but the wire isn't a lecture ffs

"SNAT BOOGIE"

it approaches every social problem through a fuckin STORY

you've never seen sopranos?

nope not yet

i've seen one episode actually, one of the season openers? lotta dream sequences (why it seems like my thing)

report back. I am curious. I can usually make it through a lot of bad shows but it was super boring to me. maybe it picks up in the later seasons.