Impeach Trump Y/N

My understanding is they want the House impeachment vote to happen around late November.

I thought the idea was that if impeachment processes were done overtly enough it might have a direct effect on the polling and the public would be brought along as things were gradually exposed. THought that was one of the things shown by the Watergate hearings development. 19% pro impeachment rising to 57% or whatever through the process of what people were seeing in their newsp[aers and tvs.
But those were different times and the polarisation and prevalence of the right wing element of the media wasn't as high.

The polls won't change, not sure what you mean or why you would think that.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

But they have aelready in the last 48 hours. If you start seeing a majority of Americans regardless of party supporting impeachment based on Ukraine, i.e. over 50 percent, you'll see more panic on the right.

I would be surprised if either scenario happened. Then again, I was in despair on Monday afternoon. Yet here we are.

I'm also not sure what the wisdom is in fast-tracking impeachment, I keep hearing from Dems it "has to be done before Iowa!" and it's like...why?

I also wonder how they plan on doing this by Thanksgiving w/o the full cooperation of the courts who are going to have to rule on WH withholding documents, witnesses etc.

The polls won't change, not sure what you mean or why you would think that.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive),

Polls do change, the mistake is expecting immediate change. People don't change view instantaneously but gradually over months and even years. Need to factor in lag time

DJP we’ve had our differences but harsh

actual lol

I also wonder how they plan on doing this by Thanksgiving w/o the full cooperation of the courts who are going to have to rule on WH withholding documents, witnesses etc.

― The Ravishing of ROFL Stein (Hadrian VIII)

This morning Pelosi said that she expects the courts to issue decisions next year, so I suspect she thinks "the process" will go into the election cycle.

TBH I'm starting to get cold feet about this impeachment thing the more I read about the plans. So we're gonna do a quick-hit no-chance-of-conviction impeachment process based solely on a single abuse of power by a president who is actually endemically corrupt and unfit for the office for dozens of reasons? Is this basically just the equivalent of a public censure?

I had dinner with a friend last night who is an attorney (which I think you are as well? iow I am not trying to tell you how your job works, just relaying info I got from someone who is more clued in than me) who noted that the other in-flight investigations can and likely will be tacked onto this as separate articles of impeachment, meaning that this is the initial spearhead and there are potentially up to six additional articles of impeachment that can be included in this.

"fast-tracking" is stupid but as Sotosyn says likely impossible

is this thread gonna be like the other political threads where DJP and I try to save you straight white dudes from your howlings of doom

Nah, I'm accustomed at this point to pulling myself up by my howling doomstraps, thankuverymuch.

I'd say keep watching the polls. The speed doesn't matter much to me (for now) because, elongated or accelerated, McConnell's Senate won't budge -- unless, of course, the polls change.

I hate to be the guy urging caution again.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

i get what you're saying and i've also adopted a vision of "politics" that has no reference whatsoever to what opinion polls say, because for me it is no longer a question of _when_ they will do what is necessary, but a question of what i need to do, and ultimately what we need to do, in order to compensate for their failure. it's the only way i can reclaim my own political agency.

after 2016 i'm yet to be convinced that polls have value beyond as an excuse. a lot of people trying to pretend to be "independent" and "open-minded" who aren't, who are just going to do whatever they are going to do anyway. trump's supporters have infinite capacity for cognitive dissonance, and what i'm waiting for is perhaps the moment of realization, the opportunity for healing, and perhaps the inevitable consequences of their actions. for some non-zero number of trump's supporters it will be the latter.

This is so "Trial of Tim Heidecker"

very otm

is this thread gonna be like the other political threads where DJP and I try to save you straight white dudes from your howlings of doom

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

i wonder if i still have "straight white dude" politics sometimes.

DJP is right, I've been hearing a bit of clarification that yeah, this whistleblower/Ukraine stuff is being "fast tracked" or focused on or whatever, but just to get it rolling. The next step is getting people to testify and so on, which will take a while and will each no doubt open up further avenues of investigations.

Man, Howling Doomstraps is an A+ band name.

The polls won't change, not sure what you mean or why you would think that.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive),

Polls do change, the mistake is expecting immediate change. People don't change view instantaneously but gradually over months and even years. Need to factor in lag time

― anvil, Friday, September 27, 2019 9:24 AM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I would say the absolute ceiling is the narrow popular majority with which Clinton lost the election. We're not in the Watergate era anymore where everyone reads the morning paper and there are like three channels that all take roughly the same center-liberal view on everything. We're not going to march the nation toward consensus unless there's something a hell of a lot stronger than the Ukraine thing that can be easily explained in a narrative that is not easily respun against Democrats.

I mean, when you said the polls would "change" you were talking about it in a context that the change would be significant enough to cause at least a couple of GOP senators to fear their seats. I am skeptical of that, but would love to be proven wrong.

And also that means not changing the national popular opinion but changing popular opinion in their home states.

I don't know, sounds to me like Rudy has it pretty much figured out. Soros, Hillary, 2016 Ukrainian election interference, Bidens, servers ... Dems should hold off and see where he goes with this, maybe save us all some trouble.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, September 27, 2019 7:41 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

What if Rudy went looking for the server and accidentally stumbled upon the missing WMDs?

He and OJ can go looking for the real killer

And also that means not changing the national popular opinion but changing popular opinion in their home states.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

Is America actually one country? Somebody persuade me because I'm not persuaded.

He and OJ can go looking for the real killer

This was funny
https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/this-guy-truly-has-no-idea-what-hes-talking-about-1838500602?%2Fsetsession

Is America actually one country?

It's a weird hybrid that normally functions externally as a nation, but functions internally as a collection of disassembled parts, that occasionally gets assembled into a nation.

A notion of a nation.

Sometimes a Grope Nation

-janet jackson

America is an imagined community, just like any other nation

David Brooks says the inquiry is a mistake, so thank you Mr Reverse Barometer

haha, i posted pretty much the same thing at the same moment on the US politics thread

The re-election campaign of Representative Rashida Tlaib of Michigan began selling T-shirts emblazoned with the slogan “Impeach the MF,” using a two-letter abbreviation for an expletive the first-term congresswoman used for the president when she uttered that phrase in a speech to activists in January.

i get it, and i have and will call him much worse, but, not helpful

I am relatively certain Tlaib, much like Omar, understands the people who voted for her and as such knows this shirt is something they want.

If you want "not helpful" go look at that dumbass Brooks column

I am also certain that the shirt makes sense to her supporters, and that it will be helpful for her fundraising campaign. I like her a lot, too, not that it matters. But her actions have an influence beyond her constituency.

not sure anything will come of this - claims seem substantively sound but a bit politically thin

sure impeach him, why not - however more important for the dems will be having an inspiring economic vision to sell at the next election. that's how we get rid of this lunk

AOC has it right. McDongface said, well, if they want to waste time with impeachment, then no legislation, and she responded about all the stuff they have sent to the Senate, from guns on down, that he has never bothered even scheduling a vote for. Guns legislation, she noted, was sent their way in February. They need (and will) run on all this shit he is stopping or slowing. Same with the president. Same with impeachment.

But her actions have an influence beyond her constituency.

This is your absolute dumbest and worst opinion, FTR. This repeated belief that we have to somehow worry about "riling up" people who have existed in a state of frothing rage since mid-2016. Who are these "middle ground" people you seriously think a) exist and b) will be driven into the arms of the Republican party by too-overt displays of anti-Trumpism from Democratic politicians?

Tell the truth - are you Rahm Emanuel?

Ok that's uncalled for

sure impeach him, why not - however more important for the dems will be having an inspiring economic vision to sell at the next election. that's how we get rid of this lunk

― stoffle (||||||||)

maybe they should run on a platform of all-day breakfast. after all, it worked for mcdonalds, and really, why should there be any difference than american government and mcdonalds?

America is an imagined community, just like any other nation

― Sally Jessy (Karl Malone)

ok, all nations are imaginary, and so when we cease to believe in the collective lies they're built on, like, say, that governments possess a monopoly on the legitimate use of force...

The rats are abandoning ship

The first Republican House member has announced support for the impeachment inquiry against President Trump: Representative Mark Amodei of Nevada

See the full list: https://t.co/nnYylNUBSA pic.twitter.com/7SUfyj48Sq

— The New York Times (@nytimes) September 27, 2019

Kurt Volker just resigned lol

what the...

Hannity is losing it pic.twitter.com/HTXgj0kQK1

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) September 27, 2019

the ship is made of rats

But her actions have an influence beyond her constituency.

This is your absolute dumbest and worst opinion, FTR. This repeated belief that we have to somehow worry about "riling up" people who have existed in a state of frothing rage since mid-2016. Who are these "middle ground" people you seriously think a) exist and b) will be driven into the arms of the Republican party by too-overt displays of anti-Trumpism from Democratic politicians?

Tell the truth - are you Rahm Emanuel?

― shared unit of analysis (unperson), Friday, September 27, 2019 3:58 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i was in therapy for the last hour (unrelated to assholes i know on the internet), so just seeing this. i have waaaaaay dumber and worse opinions, you're totally wrong

also i'm not sure where you got the "riling up" quote because the closest thing i've said to that is when i "said hi to a neighborhood dog named riley" the other day

This Albert Burneko piece is good, and worth keeping in mind at all times.

Donald Trump is not trying to get impeached. He does not want to be impeached, and he definitely does not have a sophisticated dastardly plot to turn his impeachment into greater personal power or as a strategy to create a more solidified and motivated political base. He does not have a sophisticated dastardly plot to do anything, or any other kind of plot. The man is not capable of sophistication, or any but the basest sensation-seeking dastardliness; it’s all he can do to get the fast food from its cardboard container to the appropriate face-hole. He is a big stupid idiot, is what I am saying, and he likes things that feel good and wants them right now and doesn’t like things that don’t feel good and doesn’t want them ever, and that is the extent of him.

...

None of this is a part of some scheme. There is never a scheme. He is not sandbagging. He is not playing four-dimensional chess. Donald Trump is not capable of four-dimensional chess. Put Donald Trump in a thumb war against a department-store mannequin and he will be lucky to escape with a draw. He will call it victory. What’s infinitely depressing is how many of his nominal political opponents will believe him.

The weirdest, saddest, and most unhelpful people, maybe in all the world, are: boomer liberals (like the leadership of the Democratic party, for example) who look upon Donald Trump’s lifelong track record of failing at petty crook shit—doing petty crook shit and not only getting away with it but in many cases declaring his failure a great success, and then being rewarded with greater fame and stature in turn—and insist they are seeing the work of a mastermind, rather than the tides of American life and culture carrying yet another born-rich shit-for-brains white asshole past and above any and all demands and consequences. The idea of Trump is the sucker-ass belief in meritocracy, in hoary old Great Man bullshit, twisted into its most horrible gargoyle incarnation. He’s rich and famous, he’s the president of the country, and therefore it just simply must be the case that he has earned this station for himself, one way or another, via some expression of traits that make him equal to it. He has to be some kind of genius, even if it’s the evil kind. There is no way that a braying worthless dope, a man with no qualities of any kind to recommend him, could have ended up where Trump has ended up.

And now that investigations into Donald Trump’s campaign and also into his efforts to thwart and obstruct those same investigations—investigations about which he has been in a panicky and very public rage since well before his inauguration—have moved him into the crosshairs of impeachment, the meritocracy dead-enders in the opposition party believe that this must be happening because he wills it. His almost comically brazen and plainly illegal attempts to silence, discredit, and outright threaten the people doing and/or cooperating with the investigations must reflect some active and strategic desire to be impeached. He must be laying a trap: If Congress impeaches him, he will not be mad, he will be laughing actually. The alternative is that the very obviously hopelessly dimwitted lifelong failure currently sitting atop a pile of inherited and/or pilfered cash in the most powerful office on earth is precisely as stupid and balloon-handed and incompetent as he has spent his entire adult life proving himself to be. America just doesn’t work like that.

That’s the thing being fought over, ultimately. The question of whether to impeach Donald Trump is, among other things, the question of how to defeat him. The question of how to defeat him is, among other things, the question of what he really is in the first place: Is he just Donald Trump The Illiterate Racist Sex Clown or is he the Republican Party or is he the deeper and more fundamental articles of American life and history? That, in turn, is the question of what kind of society this really is. Is it one in which vast material inequalities are mere flukes of circumstance, or is that situation the just allocation of reward, or is it the residue of systemic theft by a class of cruel moral dwarves, or what?

Which is to say: When you credit Donald Trump, in the absence of absolutely any evidence, with possessing the Mephistophelian cunning to bring about his own impeachment, deliberately, for the purpose of bringing to fruition some long-simmering plot to consolidate his political support, you are finally saying that you agree with him. Not just on the baseless claim that he’s actually in possession of one (1) Whole Adult Brain, but on his broader infantile idea of what kind of place this country is. He believes that he deserves what he has because he has it, and his every decision flows from that belief; he believes that being rich and famous, alone, is proof that he should be rich and famous. To see him as he sees himself—as a sinister mastermind—and treat him as he believes he should be treated is to agree with him on all that.

otm x 1million

the first House Republican, Rep. Mark Amodei (R-NV) has come out in support of an impeachment inquiry, albeit in a somewhat mealy-mouthed way. “Let’s put it through the process and see what happens.” Amodei would not say whether he believes the President committed an impeachable offense.