PMs change and lol we're all gonna die (but brexit will never end)

*have some of your strong brew obv!

If Labour had claimed remain from the getgo, letting crazy clown BoJo ride the PM-ship for a while should have Labour well over the 50 percent imo.

(drinking rose tbf)

"huge part of the problem imo"

i mean this is true, but almost all of of it is down to the absolutely fucking terrible political reporting we've allowed to develop in this stupid country

I...understand it? They need a credible Leave option for a 2nd ref, so in the (very) likely scenario the country votes leave again, it’s not a total fucking car crash. They’re not putting no deal or the May deal as the option, they are indicating they will negotiate something different. (This almost certainly includes a sea border cos they’re not going to be reliant on DUP votes).

The whole point is that it sits in the context of where the country is now. Labour coming out full Remain now means Boris and the Tories, who have been trying to paint Labour as “antidemocratic” and “ignoring the referendum” for years get their legitimisation for that attack line. Means they fancy their chances nicking a swathe of Lab/Con marginals in Leave areas off them.

The labour policy, though, is to negotiate a new deal in 3 months and have a referendum. Resolve the thing quickly. If I were them I’d be leaning heavily on that aspect.

xp WOW GEE WHIZ WHAT IS THIS CRAZY POSITION NOONE CAN UNDERSTAND, says the broadcaster paid hundreds of thousands a year to explain complicated topics to the public.

I mean if nothing else it’s been patiently explained 1000 times in this thread alone so not sure why anyone here would still need an AdamPolitics

the lab/con marginals in shitholes like doncaster are the tories best chance of winning a majority seeing as they are dead in scotland. Labour going full unequivocally Remain would be a gift to them and their nasty one issue party pals.

gyac v otm

'We want to stay in the EU, so we'll organize a second referendum and officially back Remain, but if Leave wins again, we're going to carry out the will of the British people and negotiate the best possible withdrawal agreement.' I don't get what's so awful about that. It's not as though the NEC statement were without its own set of pitfalls.

i mean this is true, but almost all of of it is down to the absolutely fucking terrible political reporting we've allowed to develop in this stupid country

― mark s, Monday, September 23, 2019 8:49 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is definitely true, I'll concur.

The whole point is that it sits in the context of where the country is now. Labour coming out full Remain now means Boris and the Tories, who have been trying to paint Labour as “antidemocratic” and “ignoring the referendum” for years get their legitimisation for that attack line. Means they fancy their chances nicking a swathe of Lab/Con marginals in Leave areas off them.

I hear you, I really do, but "where the country is now" is in no small part due to Labour's inability to give clarity in the first place. Labour should've come out full remain in 2016 alredy, "where the country was then". There was a strategic reason too, for not doing so at the time, probably. Point is: there will forever be strategic reasons to do or not do certain things. But people like it most when a political party says what they want, regardless of previous or current status of the land. Imo Labour failed, and is failing, at this.

I mean if nothing else it’s been patiently explained 1000 times in this thread alone so not sure why anyone here would still need an AdamPolitics

― YouGov to see it (wins), Monday, September 23, 2019 8:54 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Otm. And yet these explanations (dixit @adampolitics "Labours position, as I understand it, is") seem in high demand...

if labour had come out full remain in 2016, we would be outside the EU already

I don't buy that at all. Would it somehow have been easier for May to get the WA through? Labour still would've voted against it.

yes - significantly easier to get your bills through when you have a 30+ majority

Kind of annoying that when I tried to explain how my ambivalence about EU was not really about freedom of movement, people responded by saying those who expressed that opinion were tilting at windmills because everyone fundamentally agreed with that position here and then

Sorry that you feel citizenship from a country that is increasingly openly demonized by brexiteers is not like purely abject enough for you. And sorry that we're skeptical that "brexit is bollocks" position doesn't really shore up our anxiety about where this is going.

Btw I'm running a high fever so come at me

<3 plaxico

Good luck with that fever and take care of yourself.

Get off my ceiling

shocking stuff has just been messaged to me from a labour MP at conference. hard to believe this pic.twitter.com/maiqdS2q2e

— kombucha_fan420 (@internetratbag) September 23, 2019

labour's policy is the only one that makes any sense. it's the only one that holds out any possibility of some sort of reconciliation of divergent, dug-in positions rather than reinforcing all the reductive framing of diametrical opponents pitted against one another wherein half of referendum voters are conclusively just wrong/stupid/evil.

my brain literally read the word 'windmills' in that plaxico post and inserted a hallucinatory 'jolyon' next to it fyi

beautifully put conrad.

It’s Leader. https://t.co/h7tmMWOH7m

— Mike Gapes (@MikeGapes) September 23, 2019

It’s extremely sad how all these guys just spend their time retweeting bad Labour news & qting former colleagues - seems unhealthily obsessive. You see this even with some who left the party years ago.

brainworms are real right

Actually dying at the replies to that, brutal

committing to have a second referendum six months after a GE seems bad

hook it into my veins

A Labour MP gets in touch following the conference Brexit votes. pic.twitter.com/MX3s9fjMsK

— Kevin Schofield (@PolhomeEditor) September 23, 2019

kevin schofield is a cheroot huffing xunt

Schofield has his Labour right contacts and we have LBI and pom to count on.

Swings and roundabouts etc.

Rounding up the furnurs eh comrade? Charming.

emily maitliss has just described labour policy as a "spot on compromise analysis" : O

... only after it was ventriloquised by yanis varoufakis

Because you’re having a go at people who probably agree with you on 95% of stuff?

― gyac, Monday, 23 September 2019 18:27 (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

between this and tom's "getting pretty worked up" comment, lads, lads, listen....have a word. why is it only pom deserves a rompering for the crimes all itt are guilty of, and many ahead of him in line of magnitude of guilt

why do all these insufferable xunts even care what side jeremy corbyn supports anyway?

they've spent three years saying he was bloody AWOL during the last referendum - their positions are not even internally consistent

If Labour had claimed remain from the getgo, letting crazy clown BoJo ride the PM-ship for a while should have Labour well over the 50 percent imo.

(drinking rose tbf)

― Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 23 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Sadly I'm sober rn.

sorry wasn't referring to anyone itt as an insufferable xunt - meant hardcore "follow back, pedophile"-types

nb maitliss' forced confusion only matched by starmers seeming bewilderment there

i mean its an absurdly simple position. what the fuck gives.

did you literally come into a thread several hours later to resurrect this? I have no beef with Pom the person or any of the regulars itt, but it is so tedious having to explain & defend my position again and again and guessing others feel the same.

xps to deems

Yanis otm.

xp to Deems: Because ultimately ppl itt don't like people from outside England to opine on current brexit affairs. This has been made rather obvious. Hence comrade's remark just now, etc etc.

This is...extremely untrue & unfair.

I feel attacked

Being told to shut it is ok, being lumped together as "LBI and Pom" - though I care about Pom - is rather telling tbf. It's mostly comrade alphabet's doing though. And - raises fist - it won't stop me from *reading this thread!*. As I <3 Gyac, NV, Plax especially and most of youse.

I do have a stake in this, you know. I wouldn't haunt this thread if I didn't. No need to drag up the past again, it's all scattered across the board why I am interested in this, and my stake isn't even as prescient or serious as Pom's is (we get thrown together on here, and he seems to me a prince and a scholar, but we do in fact not know each other in real life, and it annoys the fuck out of me to be put in the 'foreigner' corner, just saying), as he's actually living in the uk.

*sighs* ah well.

Nobody is telling you to shut it LBI. Keep posting, its fine man.

Time for me to stick my head above the parapet. Labour should be leading on this and many other issues. Freedom of movement is a great thing, or at the very least the positives massively outweigh the negatives. As with everything else the Tories have done a shit job at dealing with the negatives whilst reaping the massive benefits of the positives, all while taking a classic fascist position on immigration ( especially people of colour and people who don’t measure up to whatever standards of economic benefit they choose to set)

Once again though labour is vacillating. Instead of coming out in full throated support of free movement and a internationalisation of workers rights we get something that is close to ‘legitimate concerns’ in the manifesto. (Migration impact fund should be restored and then some).

It is the timidity and vacillation that is galling.

sorry gyac ive had an uncharacteristically busy day

the two statements i picked out were likewise not a beef with either you or tom, both of whom i like as i like everyone itt.

im pointing out that the two *behaviours* ye identified as issues with pom (and specifically *not* positions) are far more egregiously displayed by others itt on an hourly basis and that seems so blatantly obvious to me at least that it invites anyone of good faith to have a moment to genuinely consider it.

nb i am perfectly aware i am not held as such a person itt, nonetheless the invite stands.

should point out that i dont at all agree with the characterisation in lbi's follow up fwiw

some of the bullshit self victimisation in this thread tonight is about as convincing as Gapes attempt at joining the grammar police!