2020 Democratic presidential primary

Also, separation of powers is a key democratic principle so the executive power using mass mobilization to interfere with the other two branches is just plain dangerous and I don’t welcome such ideas.

I'm sorry, but this is silly. Mass mobilization is far more directly democratic in nature than the power brokering that happens between elected representatives. If huge masses of people convince their representatives to follow their will rather than the will of the representatives' parties or donors, then that's more democratic, not less.

mass mobilization to interfere with the other two branches is just plain dangerous

there are elections every two years where the masses may be effectively mobilized, and these are not deemed to be "interference" with the legislative branch. if you are imagining Bernie personally staging mass 'direct action' events against Congress, I think your imagination is jumping the track.

like Perrin, i believe in Sanders (to the extent i do) as a catalyst. Fuck off with sainthood.

those other two branches of guvmint are determined to lead us right into Waterworld.

sux how both Bernie and Warren would be replaced by GOP Senators, good work VT/MA

Warren is definitely to the left of Warren but I think her Presidency would play out similarly. Mostly mopping up after a shitty predecessor, maybe a major legislative achievement or two, then losing a ton of seats in midterm and pivoting to competent management

To the left of Obama

Warren is to the right of Warren actually

if you are imagining Bernie personally staging mass 'direct action' events against Congress, I think your imagination is jumping the track.

He'll knock the halls of Congress down like Samson destroying the temple, with nothing but the force of his exasperated groans!

bernie hair strong, bernie like bull

Both Sanders and Warren would be constrained by congress, but Bernie's response would be to point out exactly why popular policies are being stymied and use the bully pulpit to whip up mass mobilization

I don’t think I’m jumping track here

the bully pulpit doesn't work anymore. It only whips up your base, period.

yup. the shine has come off the presidency.

use the bully pulpit to whip up mass mobilization

In the USA in my lifetime, the only issues that whipped up mass mobilizations that took their grievances to the streets were the civil rights and anti-war movements. The various civil rights mobilizations all took decades of dedicated perseverance to bear useful fruit and the anti-war movements mostly failed.

Before my lifetime, Cox's Army also mostly failed. The unionization for workers movement took half a century.

Practically speaking, I don't think that Sanders and Warren are as far apart as either of their supporters think. Their policies seem fairly similar, with differences coming down mostly to framing, style/personality, and perceptions of ideological purity. Sanders supporters may find Warren's "capitalist to my bones" rhetoric inherently disqualifying, but I don't think it would actually make a meaningful difference in her approach to governing (versus Bernie's). I don't see her as more likely to compromise on her policies; to the contrary, she strikes me as somewhat savvier than Sanders in her ability to enact them.

MY SECRET PLAN TO DESTROY SOCIAL MEDIA WILL RESTORE THE BULLY PULPIT

Practically speaking, I don't think that Sanders and Warren are as far apart as either of their supporters think.

They're not, hence this argument about WHO GOT THERE FIRST and SHE'S A SECRET AGENT.

The attempts by Jacobin mag types to portray Warren as a new Clinton quasi-neoliberal says much more about a specific section of Sanders supporters than Warren herself.

they even created that Warren standing O for Trump, obviously

And in being more interested in narratives and wedges than policy making, it also says more about media culture than political practice and leadership, even in the confines of leftist media.

Warren standing O for Trump

What did Trump say that Warren was standing for and applauding? Maybe it was something I'd also enthusiastically agree with.

Isn't this similar to what Eugene McCarthy supporters felt about Bobby Kennedy?

"America will never be a socialist country" xp

I mean... it won't

yeah I mean

is there anyone thinking it will be?

is anyone thinking standing for a white supremacist's redmeat line is a good idea?

The complaint most hurled against against Warren by Sanders fans (not Sanders himself) is that she's suspect for believing in capitalism -- a strange criticism because Sanders has aligned himself explicitly with the New Deal many times in the last few weeks, which is a capitalism-saving bandage.

I mean, I'd sure like it to be a socialist country. And it could happen someday. The oncoming ecopocalypse is going to shake things up a great deal.

we'll get ecofascism and petty water fiefdoms first

Sure, if we keep electing people who applaud for fascists!

idk I’m pretty online and I see as much vitriol and weird bad faith characterizations of Bernie and his supporters by more mainstream libs as I do the other way (and yes, they definitely do go the other way).

add to that the indisputable bias against Sanders by the lib media and I can understand why Sanders supporters feel the need to scream online.

similar to what Eugene McCarthy supporters felt about Bobby Kennedy?

Yes, but mostly his early passionate supporters, the ones who busted their asses doing the grassroots organizing and going door-to-door. They felt that RFK was stepping in and stealing their stunning accomplishment of knocking out LBJ, which was largely correct.

The analogy would hold more water if Warren had stepped into the 2016 race after Iowa and New Hampshire had revealed Clinton's vulnerability. Also, Warren started this year's race with much less name-familiarity than Bernie, which (to understate it) was not an obstacle for RFK.

I posted this in the Bernie thread: he's working to improve his abysmal 2016 showing in SC.

Mostly mopping up after a shitty predecessor, maybe a major legislative achievement or two, then losing a ton of seats in midterm and pivoting to competent management

wonder what would happen next

anyway, they’re my adopted parents now and I shan’t countenance any badmouthing of mom or dad pls thank you

if we keep electing people who applaud for fascists!

elections are hell, aren't they? btw, I don't think that clapping or not clapping is at the root of the problem.

From my perspective they are not the Same at all. Warren is definitely superior to what would have passed as a left leaning democrat in previous cycles, but Sanders represents something else all together, it’s a once in a generational opportunity to have a democratic socialist leading an actual grassroots movement with this level of popularity on the national stage.

Yes, but mostly his early passionate supporters, the ones who busted their asses doing the grassroots organizing and going door-to-door. They felt that RFK was stepping in and stealing their stunning accomplishment of knocking out LBJ, which was largely correct.

I remember reading/seeing something where there were major complaints from McCarthy supporters that RFK appropriated some of Gene's policies, and that he wasn't authentically progressive considering his work for Joe McCarthy and the red baiting/HUAC stuff

I was being flippant re: clapping because I'm reading a lot of remarks about how a better world is not possible, so there's no reason to bother with anyone who wants to make things better. It's a reactionary perspective.

I think a better world is possible, I think socialism won’t make things better is all.

it’s a once in a generational opportunity to have a democratic socialist leading an actual grassroots movement with this level of popularity on the national stage

yup. and the best way to build up that grassroots popularity is to complain bitterly about the perfidy or stupidity of any voters who support another candidate. this is a highly attractive strategy that always works in changing those voters' minds.

Lol aimless otm

Also it's not an once in a generation opportunity. There's young politicians to take up the mantle, like AOC.

To me Warren's bonafides are obvious: accomplishments in regulatory agencies, bankrupt reform, and in the Senate that earned her the loathing of the Obama claque matched by a mastery of policy detail and -- a huge deal -- an ability to explain those details in normal people terms in a roomful of four people or at the stump before ten thousand.

She's my pick at the moment, followed by Sanders. But I don't regard her or anyone as indispensable.

*bankruptcy

by contrast, Biden's involvement in 'bankruptcy reform' was a huge win for corporations and a disaster for ordinary people

best way to build up that grassroots popularity is to complain bitterly about the perfidy or stupidity of any voters who support another candidate

segments of the rabble have ALWAYS done this

"politics ain't beanbag"

most politically engaged ppl don't do this

I think a better world is possible, I think socialism won’t make things better is all.

but Sanders represents something else all together, it’s a once in a generational opportunity to have a democratic socialist leading an actual grassroots movement with this level of popularity on the national stage.

And then...do what?

build a just and survivable future

or just eat the rich