PMs change and lol we're all gonna die (but brexit will never end)

So 'aside' from the aforementioned freedom of movement, the single market, the symbolic weight of a united postwar Europe and a few additional perks (all of which are nonetheless quite nifty, if I may say so), does anyone seriously believe that Britain has had its hands even remotely tied until the emancipatory triggering of Article 50? Or that the quest for a UK-wide 'mild social democracy' has been hindered by the EU? (All rhetorical questions, obviously.) It's all a little too convenient given how weak the EU is as a 'standalone' institution, especially when faced with a country as wealthy and influential as the UK (i.e. not-Greece). Which reminds me: another way in which Brexiteer rhetoric is similar to that of the fascists of yore (as per Umberto Eco) is that it ascribes both exceptional strength and exceptional weakness to its opponent(s).

So the crushing of Greece was a show of weakness by Europe?

And if the EU can't do very much such as imposing a set of (say) 'values' across the region then what good is the EU for? Why bother with it at all?

Eastern Europe in particular – and as a whole – is utterly unwilling to compromise on this point, and very little can be done to coerce them, which is a sad example of the EU's limited powers.

That's just nonsense - why not cut grants, impose sanctions. Talking big on the problems of communism but you've got nothing on this?!

cut grants, impose sanctions

fine grist for the populists mills

EU has values *whistles the opening tune to the 9th symphony by that fella Geir likes*

the fucking state of this, smdh

That was extraordinary. Boris Johnson, the British prime minister, has just been humiliated by the leader of the tiniest country in the European Union.

We were expecting a joint, open-air press conference but, with a large crowd of anti-Brexit campaigners threatening to drown out Johnson, it was announced that the British PM was not going to take part (presumably because of the demonstration, although that has not officially been confirmed yet). Normally in these circumstances the polite thing to do is to re-arrange. But instead Xavier Bettel, the prime minister of Luxembourg, just went ahead anyway, effectively “empty chairing” his guest. At one point he even gestured at the space where Johnson was supposed to be.

And then Xavier just let rip. People often wonder what EU leaders say or think about Johnson in private. Well, now we know. The leave campaign was a pack of lies, Johnson’s talk of progress in the Brexit talk is unfounded, the UK still has not come up with any ideas. On and on he went, with particular emphasis on the point that the UK, not the EU, was to blame for the crisis. It was a “nightmare” for EU citizen, said Bettel. At several points he was loudly applauded by the protesters, because they felt he was articulating their anger.

Where's that from?

tub of lard etc

grauniad liveblog xp

Xavier Renegade Angel

And if the EU can't do very much such as imposing a set of (say) 'values' across the region then what good is the EU for? Why bother with it at all?

The first sentence you quoted contains the answer your question.

That's just nonsense - why not cut grants, impose sanctions.

Because it would be a tremendously unpopular measure in light of the fact that the majority of Europeans (and not just from the East) are currently opposed to immigration, to say nothing of muslim migrants in particular. And like I said, there would (and already is) much hand-wringing about 'sovereignty'.

As for Greece, it was an easy target, unfortunately.

LOL Markets are good basically. Got it.

I mean, they can be? I'm not a communist, dude, so I have no idea what you're expecting.

Markets and trade are fine whatever, but its how that basically comes first for you, open borders for goods and people with bullshit symbolism that actually doesn't survive any close scrutiny. Telling how you scream about Labour immigration...when it happens to affect you. But Greece...well easy target 'unfortunately'. Orban is this giant who can't be defeated the way Syriza was. I wonder why? Bullshit excuses about big bad populism. Its just waffle.

I recant. The EU is bad and totally on board with Orban, and Greece did nothing wrong, .

Where are the sanctions - and so what if Hungary leave the EU?! Doesn't the EU have values and rules people have to follow? Paper empire I tells ya.

I'd be all too happy if Hungary bailed the fuck out of the EU or were forced out. Poland vowed to veto any sanctions so they can go fuck themselves as well.

shoulda gotten em the way your people got the czechs in 68 right xp

I thought you were going to bring up 1956 lol.

lol, cool as long as black and brown migrants are locked out and that is the liberal way *hums tune to the 9th symphony*

i regret to inform you that laura kuenssberg is back on her bullshit

Source says No 10 asked for press conference inside so that the two leaders could be heard over the small but very noisy protest, but request was rejected and insisted on having it outside with the 2 podiums

— Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) September 16, 2019

Whatever side you are on, having been outside the presser that never happened, it would have been total pandemonium if it had gone ahead - protesters were shouting and chanting as loudly as they could within metres of the podiums

— Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) September 16, 2019

EU countries have done jack shit for Syrian refugees, as is well known. I'm sure the UK would have saved them all had Article 50 been triggered sooner.

xp

Brexit is gonna be so great for migrants to get to go to the UK

Tbh xyzzy and I say this from a place of love but we're all far more in agreement than not today and painting pom as some hawkish neolib is deeply fucking unjust

xxxp

if he doesn't like noisy protesters gl when he hits the north on the election campaign again, he'll have to keep it to managed appearances in front of friends, family and party activists. oops I forgot his own family hates him as well.

if ye hadnt chased away actual diversity of opinion ye wouldnt have to pretend pom was it in order to show off yr legit outrage credentials folx x

far more in agreement than not today

Not just today tbh (thanks btw).

NV - its pom that's saying 'Orban is King too fucking bad' and 'Greece had it coming' not me. He isn't a hawkish neolib but the guy makes a lot of excuses for whatever the EU is doing. I say why not go the way of sanctions/try something anything and he and his joker buddy Euler bring up fucking Hungary '56 lol.

I don't think its unjust to at least call out some of this nonsense.

Orban is King too fucking bad

Yes, this is exactly what I've been saying. I've also made it perfectly clear that I'm opposed to any sanctions.

I recant. The EU is bad and totally on board with Orban, and Greece did nothing wrong, .

I don't know enough to say, gyac. Got any reading material for me?

Yes, this is exactly what I've been saying. I've also made it perfectly clear that I'm opposed to any sanctions.

― pomenitul, Monday, 16 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

This is what you said:

Eastern Europe in particular – and as a whole – is utterly unwilling to compromise on this point, and very little can be done to coerce them, which is a sad example of the EU's limited powers.

Not even cuts in EU grants? Maybe not sanctions but not being able to trade under single market rules. Its not true there isn't nothing.

Did you read my next post? mark s was right.

I'd be all too happy if Hungary bailed the fuck out of the EU or were forced out. Poland vowed to veto any sanctions so they can go fuck themselves as well.

And you saw the article that LBI linked to upthread, right? There have been attempts, they're just pathetically halfhearted.

You only said that after I pushed you.

I saw the LBI article and did comment on it.

So you read my post bemoaning how little the EU can do against Hungary, whose position on immigration is in fact equivalent to that of its Eastern European neighbours (not to mention, increasingly, that of Western Europeans as well) and hence difficult to sanction outright and you came to the conclusion that I am quite simply opposed to punitive measures?

Please stop engaging with xyzzzz__ - there is nothing in it for anyone.

pom, I know it seems weird, but you have to remember: He is a complete moron. The blocker works beautifully.

I've vowed not to block anyone. Besides, he can be a good poster when he isn't picking on his fellow ILXor, especially when discussing non-political topics.

Pom - when you say there is very little we can do about a specific member I am arguing back to say that isn't even true - and I cite the example of Greece (and other Euro countries too, but to a lesser extent) during the financial crisis. So if punitive measures were handed to Greece why not Hungary? Stop trying to cover up for this basket case. I don't support Brexit but yes the UK under Labour left government needs to be left alone to pursue its agenda (all speculation as the likelihood of Labour winning outright aside) because we have been a high-level of intervention from the EU in the last few years.

I am not picking on you, but on some of the content of your posts :)

So if punitive measures were handed to Greece why not Hungary?

Because it's not just about Hungary, it's about Poland as well. And other Eastern European countries, not to mention Austria and Italy – first and foremost – then other Western EU members that are increasingly opposed to immigration but that don't dare spell it outright (France being a prime example).

The EU functions as a centrist-right brake on its members, it's cushioned the UK from the worst excesses of Thatcherism including the Blair extension of same. I'm all for testing the limits of that, to destruction if need be, but still, all things being equal, better in than out

Just about

Can we have a EU thread where Comrade Alphabet and his foes can duke it out?

Please stop engaging with xyzzzz__ - there is nothing in it for anyone.

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 16 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

1) You have just engaged me by mentioning me, 2)You are an internet veteran and you should know this NEVER WORKS, come on Andrew.

We are all dreaming of a better world.

Some of us of a better one than others

What is the 'good'? What is the 'better', Glaucon?

I am not picking on you, but on some of the content of your posts :)

― xyzzzz__, Monday, September 16, 2019 6:02 PM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

You're engaging with Pom in bad faith (and not for the first time iirc)

:)