David Fincher's serial killer chat 'em up MINDHUNTER

I don't think I'd let tickling dude near my kids.

no fucking way

oh fuck no

OK dumb question, perhaps, but:

a. Why was Shepard let go?
b. Why was he so mad at Holden about it?

I mean, I guess it's because (under Shepard's watch) there was lying about the "cunts", but I otherwise don't understand why Shepard would be forced out to be replaced by a more sympathetic individual, nor do I understand why Shepard would exclusively blame Holden. (It seems more likely that the higher-ups wanted Shepard gone because they have far greater faith in the unit's work than Shepard himself did? idk. I don't quite get it.)

It’s a bureaucracy

I watched that scene again and again and I still don't get it. "Someone had to take the fall" for what? Who required it? I just don't get it, and I don't understand the basis for most of Shepard's accusations.

Oh wait, I just remembered the last scene with the OPR. Maybe that was the direct cause? Not "cunts" or the principal or anything else but Holden's unrestrained contempt for the inquiry process?

Anyway that scene (where Shepard dresses Holden down) was really intense I watched it several times

That wasn't really clear to me either. Closest I can get is that Holden's behaviour was bad and demanded some response but the bureau didn't want to lose or stifle their boy genius so they punished his boss instead? Which would also mean that Gunn didn't actually make the OPR go away.

I refuse to write multiple paragraphs explaining bureaucracy

can you point us to the guy who wont

credit flows up, blame flows down, rivals for hierarchical fealty plunder and poach one another's institutional resources (esp. the productive or promising achievements of subordinates) in order to define the appearances of success in the face of uncertainly fluctuating external conditions

When Holden is trying to figure out who the snitch is he explicitly rules out Shephard as "having the most to lose" should the tape be discovered. Shephard also, against his better judgment, went along with everything. So the tape being discovered seals his fate. Holden is saved because Dunn is well connected and wants to ride this gravy train.

I see. So basically, somebody in Congress (i.e.) was upset that the unit (including Shepard) did this cover-up, somebody needed to be fired to placate that person, even though Holden tried to take all the blame himself (even to a point where his reckless disregard toward the OPR people seemed as if it would surely result in his dismissal), some people higher-up (Dunn) recognize that Holden is "on to something" and so they decide to blame and fire Shepard, instead, to placate the person in Congress who is mad.

So Shepard is equally angry that a. it was Holden who said "cunts", and then had it redacted, and then subtly persuaded Gregg to lie about it, as he is angry that b. Holden is considered by the FBI to be more valuable an asset than Shepard himself. Have I got it right? (Sorry, I've never worked in a hostile office environment before! I literally did not understand this plot point.)

lol as soon as Shepard left the party I said "oh he was forced to 'retire'."

"I refuse to write multiple paragraphs explaining {insert any ilx discussion}."

Only just learned Anna Torv is Australian, mind blown.

shes v cate tbf, idk what Australians "look like"

Somewhere between “exquisitely delicate beauty” and “yesterday’s chips left out in the sun”

xxp wait until you find out her aunt used to be married to Rupert Murdoch!

I think the lie about profiling the show hints at strongly but tends to dance around is that the psychological monographs on the incarcerated that they're coming up with are no more than window dressing and a way to reframe things to local police in a way that makes them push past biases. There's an undercurrent to every conversation with local cops who think offenders were "born bad" that implies poverty, racism, etc. and season two reverses that dynamic with the mothers who are sure the killer has to be a white KKK member.

It's pushing past the systemic and social biases that actually brings results. Politically, it can't be a younger black man killing the kids in season two because society can't handle the repercussions. That's where they're failing on BTK -- it can't be a man in good social standing because that's not who a serial killer is. All of the reasoning works backward -- coming up with a justification on why someone incarcerated committed the crime, not who committed an unsolved crime -- until they find an existing solved case that fits the current situation to apply as a template.

I re-watched s1 and binged s2. Great posts itt.

The two seasons feel very different in tone and mood. Upthread someone said s1 was an official adaptation of the book of the real-life Tench and Ford? Is s2 similarly biographical or is it a composite/ was the Brian stuff real? Was there an actual Wendy Carr?

The way Tench and Nancy are around Brian is so odd - I mean he's a weird kid and doesn't exactly invite hair ruffling and mad giggles but it all seems to be 'brian go and play' 'brian come and eat your peas'. Which may be just a normal TV trope; kids are often just there for narrative purpose I guess, but this show should be different.

I didn't know anything about BTK or the Atlanta stuff irl, could not believe it went up to like 29 murders or whatever it was. I felt like so much of the 'normal' procedural police expositiony stuff that you might expect wasn't there (in a good way) so it was kind of hard to get a handle on it.

Need to re-watch Zodiac.

also why is Gregg even there, he contributes nothing

much of season 2 including the manson + son of sam interviews are from the book. the brian stuff is not real (iow did not happen to one of the real life profilers but does seem to be based on a true story). the department did work with academics including ann burgess a professor from boston college who is mentioned a few times in the book. there's nothing in it about her sexuality tho and all that stuff feels like it was made up for the show.

The stuff with Tench’s kid was invented for the show.
Wendy Carr is based on a real person.

i read it at the shore last week and i was surprised to learn that even the tickling principal is in the book

Xp dammit

thanks
The book will be on my very slow-moving reading list

it's a v quick read

I liked how the show shows a lot of things that don't go anywhere e.g.that cross, the attempt to recruit security for the concert.

also why is Gregg even there, he contributes nothing

watching him squirm during Wendy's convo with the S&M killer was *chef's kiss*

I recently determined that my sexual preference is "Anna Torv's wardrobe on this show," I think.

finished S2.
the Atlanta story was very well portrayed i thought (had never heard of it prior to watching this).
but, have to admit, the BTK interludes become tiresome.

I am really surprised by how many people weren't previously aware of the Atlanta Child Murders!

Or at least I was until I reflected on the fact that of COURSE one of America's most prolific serial killers wouldn't ever achieve the same notoriety/uniquity/cultural cachet as Bundy or BTK or the Night Stalker, because his victims were black children. Nearly all of the serial killers whose names the average person could recall instantly killed white women.

(I'm not blaming mark e or anyone else for *not* knowing about Atlanta, just saying our culture wouldn't invest as much power in the names of these other killers, because their victims had less perceived value. So it's not as surprising as I would think at first glance. Relatively few people know Gary Ridgway's name, either, because he killed prostitutes.)

I was really shocked I hadn't heard of it! Then again I've only heard of Manson, Bundy... zodiac... That's about it.

I never heard of them! I’m not interested in serial killers, I always forget their names. I’m surprised tho I didn’t know about Atlanta seeing as I’ve.. read a lot of Baldwin and just missed that one.

Or at least I was until I reflected on the fact that of COURSE one of America's most prolific serial killers wouldn't ever achieve the same notoriety/uniquity/cultural cachet as Bundy or BTK or the Night Stalker, because his victims were black children. Nearly all of the serial killers whose names the average person could recall instantly killed white women.

well, there is Dahmer.

I remember the Atlanta Murders from the news when I was a kid. Even at the time there was a lot of doubt that Williams was the only killer, but after he was arrested the killings stopped so the story just faded away.

because his victims were black children

the fact i had never heard of this evil worried me a lot, for exactly this reason.
but to be fair at the time i was more interested in what Suggs was up to as opposed to following stories re mass murders in USA.
that said, it's a story that definitely has not had the same profile as the rest of the USA 70s/80s evil f*ckers, and so, for that reason alone, watching S2 was a sad/dark revelation.

btw a year or two ago there was a podcast about the murders-- "The Atlanta Monster" with lots of interviews with Williams

regarding Paul Bateson btw:

Bateson ultimately served 24 years and 3 months of his sentence, becoming eligible for parole in 1997. On the day after his 63rd birthday, in August 2003, he was released from Arthur Kill Correctional Facility on Staten Island. According to online records kept by the state's Department of Corrections and Community Supervision, his parole was successfully completed in November 2008.[7]

That is the last public record of Bateson available as of 2019; where he is living, or even if he is alive, is not known. Miller attempted to contact Bateson for his Esquire article in 2018 at his last known address, in the Long Island village of Freeport, but was unsuccessful as the phone had been disconnected; emails to different addresses either bounced or were not answered.[5] In his podcast interview around the same time, Friedkin said he had heard Bateson was living somewhere in upstate New York.[1]

A record in the Social Security Death Index shows that a Paul F. Bateson, with the same birthdate and a Social Security number issued in Pennsylvania, died on September 15, 2012.[6]

I don't doubt that the lack of a profile for the Atlanta Child Murders is primarily due to the race of the victims, but on a lesser level it can also be hard to figure out why some serial killers become celebrities and others don't. I've never quite understood why some who killed a handful are household names and others who killed dozens are forgotten. Does it always come down to the nature of the victims?

Add to this that WW was charged with only two, maintains his innocence (and is believed by many in the affected community)...well the whole thing is left in a very unsatisfying and messy place (which was, of course, brilliantly exploited by the show).

I think it's often due to the nature of their crimes, how they engaged w/ the media, the personality of the killer, etc - people remember the guy who dressed up like a clown, the cannibal, the guys who wrote letters to the media and courted public attention

i didn't know about ed kemper before this show tho i feel like maybe i should have

it really does boil down to the serial killer fitting into a very specific role for public consumption. It's very easy to see why Ramirez, Manson, Bundy, Dahmer, BTK, Zodiac, Berkowitz, and Gacy had so much attention lavished upon them vs Ridgway or Kemper or the Golden State Killer or the Grim Sleeper. The latter group had some crimes that were horrific but they didn't have the same "hook" the others did in terms of personality or their communications w/media. Golden State Killer was mostly known as the other Night Stalker til recently, maybe the "original" Night Stalker if the media was being a bit more factual.

Atlanta was a case where the murder spree itself and the investigation were more famous than the murderer. The killings were all over the news, and it seemed to take forever to find the killer--and it was just like they caught some guy.

y'all are profiling the public now

the short version of what I was aiming for before: you do profile the public, to determine where they're not looking for the killer (or whether they're looking at all), often due to stereotypes and social/racial/class issues

that's where the depressing theory that there are a number of unrecognized serial killings, because society assumes certain classes of people just tend to get murdered or die tragically

I feel shittier just having typed that

the closest comparison i can make with the Atlanta murders is the epidemic of murdered women in Juarez -- it's similar in that it took the numbers to reach a huge number before people started paying attention.

all the native american girls and women that have gone missing/ are being murdered too.

and the Texas Killing Fields

and the prostitutes killed and buried on Long Island

*every Mindhunter episode*

HOLDEN: did you kill her?

KILLER: nope

HOLDEN: we heard your dick game was weaksauce

KILLER: I killed her and ate her arm for breakfast, yeah

— Michael Tannenbaum (@iamTannenbaum) September 8, 2019