PMs change and lol we're all gonna die (but brexit will never end)

His partner was a supporter of Kirsten Gillibrand(!) and Hillary before that

She is now torn between Harris and Warren. I said "aren't they pretty different, which policies is it that you like?" but I think I was missing the point again. With both there was such a sense of policies aren't actually that important. Bernie is bad because he is rude(?)

I felt completely unable to connect with either, even my questions were wrong, I knew I was missing the point entirely. How do you talk to centrists like this? Its a different kind of brainworm - much harder to pin down because its so identity based. These aren't people who think mad things, they're people that don't seem to think anything at all - whats going on in there?

when your personal world is essentially safe and comfortable then your political concerns are likely to be tenuous and malleable

some of us still would :D

― Joe Proroguin' (Noodle Vague),

Yes! I should have capitalized Conservative. But thats the sense I got, that traditionally this would have been a self-identified "Socially Liberal Conservative" but is put off by gammon enthusiasm for nuclear strikes and self-immolation

also i think you nailed something with "zeal is childish"

would dearly love to go and march in Hull today but i can't face the crowds or the exposure

We know that the age profile of Conservatives is trending upwards (but it doesnt matter as the boomer cohort is huge and the most important electorally), and that the UK's main divide is age. But where have younger Conservatives actually gone (I don't mean "Young Conservatives" that want to bring back hanging and re-invade Zimbabwe but the 'socially liberal' crew). The Liberal Democrats should surely be scooping these up more than they are?

I don't quite understand the idea that Lib Dems are competing with Labour for voters, this isn't 2005

I know several young Tories.

Otm with the “zeal is childish” observation - they’re people who have never been subject to the real effects of politics and they absolutely hate being forced into having an opinion on it. They’re the ones that look at Labour and Tories fiercely opposed and genuinely don’t get why people get so mad about politics.

Although you said all this more succinctly.

Lib Dems represent a few constituencies: the consistently Remainiest mainstream party to voters for whom Brexit is the one over-riding issue in their lives; the sensible middle of the road for people who hate zeal or "incivility" and think the middle lane of the motorway is reserved for sensible drivers; bleeding heart liberals who can't articulate their fear of even a centre left Labour party in terms of class consciousness but that's what it is;

god my word porridge is lumpy today

i mean in general - economically conservative, think the world is basically good (it probably is to them) but don't want to vote for the Nasty Party (especially in public), are massively exercised by Brexit but largely in terms of their own fantasy image of Europeanism plus distaste for the nasty people that've voted for Leave

i shouldn't post this ramble but truth in messageboarding i guess

before i get FBPEeped i'm talking about the appeal of the Lib Dems, not the notion of Remain in toto

I don't quite understand the idea that Lib Dems are competing with Labour for voters, this isn't 2005

i think they are - it’s more a function of the fact that lab bleed to lib dems is not in lab marginals so much aiui.

so an fptp artefact.

++BREAKING++

Dominic Cummings has notified Conservative MPs that if they vote for the extension legislation next week, they will be "automatically deselected" before the next election via Conservative Central Office "even if their local organisations stand by them".

Incredible.

— Nick🇬🇧🇪🇺 (@nicktolhurst) August 31, 2019

secretly I love Cummings, he's fantastic value

ok not secretly

i assume that's within the party rules. i mean i'd look forward to a slew of legal action but this is the natural party of shutting the fuck up and climbing over the top of the trench when you're told to so

Sosa! You make Corbynsky seem like a wet menshevik!

The partner said she didn't think "economic anxiety" was an excuse for people who voted Trump (I said it was obv) and that they are all racist.

Its not just 'zeal is childish', its almost like anything tangible or substantive is inherently childish (or unrealistic?)
I felt the unconscious paternalistic disdain/contempt for the public more so than...maybe ever?

and genuinely don’t get why people get so mad about politics

but they do! These two were both very political! It was just unclear what they actually wanted (civility?). This is where I felt asking about policies was missing the point. It was about representation, identity, appearance. When the partner said all the women candidates (except Tulsi) I asked "what about Tulsi?", and it was very much "the women candidates, but not that one", but no explanation

Sorry perhaps there really should be a centrist brainworm thread

Yeah i like Cummings but then I also kinda like Trump, cant help it!

in the 18th century, , from the perspective of the whig establishment (which was the space in which almost all politics then existed), the word "enthusiasm" was literally a diss re politics and religion

in terms of literal descent modern british liberals are -- as a further part to NV's list -- the zombie rump of said whigs: and behind the "grown-ups returning to the room" thing is the dim wisps of a much deeper mythic political dream-time, as in "once there was blissful* peace and normality" viz before the industrial revolution and the emergence of the working class**

*it wasn't very blissful for lots of people obv
**i'm not claiming anyone i'm subtweeting here could sketch this, they can barely sketch the mythic blair dream-time accurately

I always assume anyone I talk to outside of the scratter part of town I live in are either melts or shy tories, and often by how they talk I'm convinced they are one or the other. I try to avoid talking about politics with friendly strangers in pubs these days because you might develop an even bleaker vision where this country is going.

I just ask questions, I never say what I think unless asked. These two didn't ask me anything

most of my pub friends are some version of gammonish extremitude - hey! it's a pub! - but i guess the closest to centrists i really know is one guy who's instinctively working class Tory but very pro-Remain and v unhappy about the coming apocalypse and the racism Leave floats on

i guess in other sense they are all centre-y in that when politics gets talked about it almost never turns aggro and we can happily take the piss out of my bolshevism and their fascism with neither side coming to blows, then we all agree to blame everything on middle class liberals, the system works

'Centrists' isn't really a good descriptor. 'Nothingists' sort of makes sense but doesn't get to the heart of the identarianism inherent (at least in its current incarnation)

the only pubs that are dog friendly and where you don't get knifed are in the posh tory bits of where I live, so it's much posher bastards I sometimes drink with. I'm happier to talk about football or geological history, R4 in the 90's - anything but politics!

cummings reign of internal blue terror is fucking hilarious, obv he's pure evil - but much more amusing than campbell ever was.

or the unconscious (and sometimes conscious) disdain for the public, which is justified because meritocracy etc

this is the echo of an 18th c phenom as well: radical and reactionary MPs would both stir up mobs to brick their rivals houses, mainly by means of FREE BEER, except every now and then the mob got out of hand and went far further

(the gordon riots began as an anti-catholic frenzy but then just started demolishing every fancy house they found; the pro-sit group KING MOB in the 1970s was named for the "church and king mobs", bcz the sits argued that the destructive energy, once unleashed, was very turnable (this was probably not great analysis, since in fact punk rock energy seems to have congealed back in the opposite direction, but HEY! DIALECTICS!)

xp

as mark pointed out liberalism was born from a certain kind of paternalism/patricianism

clearly pub politics talk is not to be encouraged or sought out but it needn't be the worst thing and it has saved me from having to engage with the work of John Harris so

but they do! These two were both very political! It was just unclear what they actually wanted (civility?). This is where I felt asking about policies was missing the point. It was about representation, identity, appearance. When the partner said all the women candidates (except Tulsi) I asked "what about Tulsi?", and it was very much "the women candidates, but not that one", but no explanation

― anvil, 31. august 2019 12:10 (twenty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

What did she say about Williamson?

Something about the way my (Reluctant Remain) manager says he thinks 'Boris will be good' indicates there's nothing Johnson could do that would dissuade him from this belief. Also so quick to brand JC 'Comrade Corbyn' that there's just no point engaging.

I forgot about Williamson!

I'd guess she would be a no too (not serious?) but I did actually forget about her and it would have been worth asking

bloody hell, I thought youse meant Chris Williamson for a sec - he can fuck off to the US tbf

The partner said she didn't think "economic anxiety" was an excuse for people who voted Trump (I said it was obv) and that they are all racist.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/16/17980820/trump-obama-2016-race-racism-class-economy-2018-midterm

“White voters with racially conservative or anti-immigrant attitudes switched votes to Trump at a higher rate than those with more liberal views on these issues,” the paper’s authors write. “We find little evidence that economic dislocation and marginality were significantly related to vote switching in 2016.”

This new paper fits with a sizeable slate of studies conducted over the past 18 months or so, most of which have come to the same conclusions: There is tremendous evidence that Trump voters were motivated by racial resentment (as well as hostile sexism), and very little evidence that economic stress had anything to do with it.

Thanks, yes, to be fair I do agree there and I know that well off voters trended Trump more than working class voters too. My point was supposed to be, lets not write off voters that made a mistake, that they are winnable back, and you don't have to move to the right to get them

for some reason this morning's thread activity reminds me my colleague went to university with sebastian payne. her verdict:

he was this v irritating little nob who ran around with a camera getting in people's business all the time
totally inept in terms of people skills

Now hoping the name of NV's pub is the Horseshoe.

Nah it’s the Fishhook

it's the Haworth but it's pronounced "Hayworth" for some inexplicable reason, it's full of self-professed cunts but they are funny and kind cunts. most of the time.

Organisers at the Sheffield rally have had to ask to crowd to stop heckling Angela Smith - the MP who resigned from Labour to set up Change. Someone in the crowd text to tell me she tried to start a chant and was repeatedly booed as people chanted ‘by election’.

— Liam Young (@liamyoung) August 31, 2019

I suddenly remembered a crucial detail about the person in my LibDem story that might have made it a lot clearer.

He looked like Christian Eriksen but with slightly longer more sideparting hair

Here we fuckin' go - Part 2 (... and so it starts)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-49526876

(xp) btw anvil, your physical description of the Lib Dem Bloke you encountered exactly corresponded to a Lib Dem Bloke I met a few years back, though this guy was older.

i lived like two minutes away from there until the end of last year! xp

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuAg2OdW4AE6oln.jpg

https://imgur.com/a/fjEJ7cs

SNP exploiting adolescent anxiety about getting seen adjusting your fly...

https://i.imgur.com/NuK9Nln.jpg

At the Bristol protest march right now, pretty strong turnout

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/politics/2019/08/31/TELEMMGLPICT000207875767_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqEDjTm7JpzhSGR1_8ApEWQA1vLvhkMtVb21dMmpQBfEs.jpeg

you love to see it!

(that's shrewsbury old market hall)

(shropshire is feudal-reactionary as balls mostly but its market town does have an earnest largely ageing liberal stripe)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDSubqJWsAAn3fx?format=jpg&name=small

newcastle earlier.

the shrewsbury pret is out of the picture behind the photographer iirc