I'm an alcoholic

a lot of doctors seem to look at things purely from a perspective of diagnosis and treatment. "what are your symptoms? what are the physical harms? what treatment can we do?" and basically ignoring other concerns like your wellbeing

Physicians seem to think in terms of obvious withdrawal symptoms, and if you don’t have those, no problem... for *them* to have to deal with.

Appropriate dr input in these matters is “I do not have adequate expertise in this, please see so-and-so this week and follow up with me next week, I hear your concerns and take them seriously.”

Unless of course it is a doc well schooled in SUDs, in which case god love ‘em (paging dr gbx).

Oh! So I just consulted with my therapist about this. She reminded me of something that I'd forgotten-- the influence of gut flora on your moods and patterns. That a specific balance of gut flora that prefers alcohol will effectively motivate you to consume alcohol. My therapist gave the example of the parasite that infects mice and cats in sequence; at a certain point, the parasite (in the mouse) will desire to move to the cat, and the mouse will develop (as a result of the parasite's influence) an attraction to the smell of cats. The mouse effectively puts themselves in a position where they are caught, and consumed by the cat, and the parasite changes hosts in this way.

So I'm going to be mindful of that, and I'm going to go back on probiotics. I was taking them regularly until... four months ago? I'm gonna add that to the list of 'tools for sobriety'.

It’s unusually nice out. Time for another pint (famous last words).

the influence of gut flora on your moods and patterns. That a specific balance of gut flora that prefers alcohol will effectively motivate you to consume alcohol. My therapist gave the example of the parasite that infects mice and cats in sequence

OK let me rephrase: alcohol does not *seem* to be the primary driver of the primary problems/issues I am having. it does contribute to some related secondary problems, which is why I'm stopping. point taken re: doctor.

sorry for vague but this is absolutely not just about my drinking, I feel that's secondary at best.

I have another appt with a specialist tomorrow and will get their take.

Brain: there's no reason to have another drink right now, it won't make you feel any better but it might put you over the legal limit and you'll probably get a hangover

Mouth: sure I'll have another

xp to myself:

and I gave all my booze away yesterday btw

Speaking as a former microbiologist and current social worker, your therapist is practicing well out of their scope.

he's my GP

(sorry if that's what you meant there)

i think quincie was referring to fgti's post?

oh ok sorry!

Yeah my bad, was referring to fgti’s therapist.

Really? This theory was originally advanced to me by a previous therapist, and I read a number of articles about it (back in 2016). A quick google suggests there have been more studies published on the connection between gut flora and mental health. I mean, I defer to your expertise! I'm just surprised is all, she isn't the first person I'd heard about this from, this did seem to be a connection that was being researched.

MattK has more depth in this than me, but I can’t see how this convo was a meaningful contribution to a therapy session given that it is speculative and I dunno kind of a waste of your time?

lol last time i saw my dentist he was nutso about gut flora, these medical practitioners must really need some zest in their lives

More NEJM less buzzfeed bozo docs

speaking for myself i'm ok with being nutso about gut flora, it's better than having no reason at all for being batshit crazy

yeah you know, it's fine. good looking out.

My therapist is in her 60s and was an esteemed professor of psychology before she switched to solely pursuing her private practice, she's educated many other therapists in the city, everybody knows her and respects her. She is constantly reading new studies and linking me to them for my own reading. Maybe my retelling of her advice was quackish but I wouldn't call her a bozo, myself, she's absolutely helped me a great deal.

I think her point was following a description of a recent tendency I've noted within my own behaviours (specifically regarding alcohol and tobacco), and that once I've resolved to quit either substance, I've found that my consumptive patterns changed from being "frequent, but limited and controllable" to "sporadic, but copious and uncontrollable". I tell myself it's "my last drink" every time, I tell myself it's "my last smoke" every time, and yet, it continues. She posited that there was an "inner drinker" within me who was trying to override the logical side of my brain, convincing me of illogical things such as "yay, I'm a non-smoker now" as I stub out my next last cigarette, and "yay I can't wait to be sober starting tomorrow" as I finish my next last bourbon. Her point about gut flora and an apparently apocryphal anecdote about a mouse/cat parasite was less about the reality of either scenario, and more (I think) examples of how inner parts of the body can override logical instincts toward disciplined cessation, which was my question. I couldn't figure out why my "resolve to quit" was making my patterns more uncontrollable.

In my own personal life, I have a friend who swears that his mental health-- after years of trying various medications, meditations, exercise, sobriety, etc.-- was vastly improved by taking regular probiotics. I followed suit and noticed some change, too.

Not the NEJM, but here's a study from the British Medical Journal (reporting on a study published in General Psychiatry). https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/anxiety-might-be-alleviated-by-regulating-gut-bacteria/

lol it's ok man i wasn't casting aspersions, it's just, those gut flora ppl, they're so into it

You kinda gotta be, it's a substantial money drain.

FGTI there's good evidence that gut flora interact with mood and mental health, for sure. What there isn't evidence for, is alcohol creating a gut flora community that encourages you to seek alcohol, which is what your therapist said. But good gut health is not insignificant in having the mental reserves to deal with dependency etc. so I'm not disagreeing with your course of action. Hope that's helpful rather than antagonistic.

Well, I’m several days sober, but I been smoking weed more, and I guess the munchies plus the “late nite alcohol sugar” deprivation means that I’m going to eat this entire bowl of cherries, they are here in front of me, I will eat them.

that's good eatin'

ah, the downside of "plus, I won't get any of the calories of alcohol!"

Sometimes life IS a bowl of cherries.

I have periodic bouts of concern about my alcohol intake (classic after-work creeping wine binge) and have come up with a methodology that works for me. I guess it won't work for everyone, because of differing personality types. But. being somewhat Asperger-y, this can put a break in my consumption diary, even if I slide back later. (I slide back)
I'm putting this out in a genuine attempt to help...
What I do is make a grid in (say) Excel that has every day of the week across the top and every hour of the day down the L/H side. Thus, every cell represents an hour in a day. That should print out sorta pocket-size.
Then - every hour that goes by without any alcohol being consumed gets shaded in. Me being me, it's not long before the urge to keep the cells coloured-in overtakes the calling of the wine.
I am currently on 3 days clear, which in terms of potential alcoholism is significant.
Otherwise, I can quite easily achieve Adrian Chiles-levels of weekly unit intake, so I'm dead pleased with dragging that down to zero.
It may be said that a lot of the hours would have been alcohol-free anyway, but that provides the psychological boost of adding a few shadings at breakfast.
Best wishes to anyone coping/dealing/struggling with this issue.

I like it, I can totally see how that would appeal to my OCD record-collector side that loves to see all my green checkmarks on an artist's Discogs page

had a "lime twist" Topo Chico with lunch yesterday, not bad!

yeah I can see how that would work. a lot of the compulsion to drink more than you should is predicated off the idea of "well, I've already had one & broken the streak, so what's 5 more?" cuz I think of it in terms of "days you drank some alcohol" vs "days you didn't" which is pretty stupid

Is there a “I’m a stoner” thread?

no, but there should be

I was doing both nightly for a looong time. Usually around three to five beers which on its own doesn’t really fuck me up but adding the weed to it would get me pretty trashed. Knocking off the weed now and realizing how much it was acting as an anti-depressant for me. Just the weight of everything being lifted once it kicked in. Fortunately it’s somewhat easy to walk away from since it’s a little harder to get and not as physically addictive so just not having it around is doing the trick. Weed is great but being a stoner has really made me emotionally unavailable to my wife so I’ve gotta take a break.

There are a number of alkies, dead and living, in my family, nearly all of whim got successfully into sobriety with AA. I had some episodes of binge drinking from my 20s til my early 50s, but nothing for about 5 years now (it mustA been the blackout that led to the ER). I think I've gotten off relatively easy because I cut my beer intake for fear of getting really fat, and I hate the taste of most hard liquor.

i use marijuana,. I avoided it for a long time after getting sober but I'd never had an issue with pot while drinking, and have not had an issue with it since returning to it. that's not true for everyone obviously but for me it's actually been a massive life saver for anxiety and insomnia and general enjoyment of life.

with weed it's so much easier for me to not do than booze. but i have had stages of smoking weed every evening for > a year, whereas i can't remember the last time i drank alcohol every day for > a week.

I've gotten to a good point with weed now where i deliberately go to a dispensary that sells shitty, cheap weed, mix it together with rolling tobacco, and vape it. so it's a pretty light and non disruptive stone i can have while watching deep space 9 in the evening or whatever. and i buy maybe on average only a gram every week or so.

yeah main diff for me is that alcohol really does feel like you're poisoning yourself, the way your body reacts after it's worn off is pretty telling. if you woke up hungover but didn't have anything to drink the night before you'd probably go to the clinic

weed you don't really get that feeling. it doesn't feel much different for your body than say taking Benadryl or melatonin to help you sleep. idk what the negative health consequences really are

THC is not good if yer pregnant, apparently

also I suppose putting anything besides air into your lungs is probably bad, though I do know people who have smoked 1-2 packs a day for decades so in comparison idk how bad that really is

xp. if i get very high then i definitely get a stone-over where I'm dumb af.

buddy of mine is a foreman for a construction company and had to quite getting high at night because he would struggle to delegated to 30 dudes at 8am the next day.

it definitely fucks my short term memory.

has made me anxious as hell many times.

has caused psychosis in several dudes i knew when i was young, leading many of them to have quite negative life-consequences (one dropped out of medical school, one ended up being unemployed and living with his parents for several years).

definitely putting something on fire and breathing it in is a bad thing to do. though of course you can take edibles, vape

"also I suppose putting anything besides air into your lungs is probably bad, though I do know people who have smoked 1-2 packs a day for decades so in comparison idk how bad that really is"

i only do edibles.

"xp. if i get very high then i definitely get a stone-over where I'm dumb af."

yeah this can happen to. it is happening to me this morning because I got high AF last night and went and saw Ringo Starr. BTW if anyone thinks of going to see Ringo's All Star band I recommend being as high as possible.

if you woke up hungover but didn't have anything to drink the night before you'd probably go to the clinic

whoa, you must get some pretty severe hangovers then? the worst of mine are like mild PMS

Yeah, that's a long hangover. I think as I got older, my liver just got slower. I'd wake up after a drinky night feeling talkative and unstable, and then sad around noon, and then the hangover would hit around 4pm. But by 10pm I'd be "OK". I remember in my early 20s, any hangover I'd wake up with would be gone by noon, washed away with a couple of pints of water. Not anymore!

My (alcohol-) sober week has been pretty good! I'm feeling optimistic!

not for a while - mine are usually gone by 10-11 AM

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you've never tried alcohol in your life and woke up feeling like that, you'd probably wanna get yourself checked out

i've had hangovers where I felt like I was going to die (not an exaggeration) for up to 36 hours. I suppose I had regular alcohol poisoning when I drank.

I've had hangovers were I've vomitted many times, not been able to get out of bed until 16-20 hours after going to bed due to the severity of my headache, and had severely crippling anxiety for days afterwards - on occasions not sleeping for several nights afterwards due to this anxiety.