PMs change and lol we're all gonna die (but brexit will never end)

The 'lol' was in response to the notion that voting Labour is somehow a difficult ethical act for you, 'despite all our issues with the party'.

This thread can be quite confronting to those of divergent viewpoints and I don’t post here often.

Plus I get to vote for Keir Starmer and be happy about which, I’m sure confirms everything you think about me.

xxp did you read his handwaving of my points about anti Irish sentiment or not?

Really now? I fail to see how expressing dissatisfaction with Corbyn's handling of Brexit (a rather banal opinion among Labour supporters, although you'd be forgiven for not thinking that in light of this thread) from a pro-European perspective somehow amounts to 'handwaving' anti-Irish sentiment.

I mean, that’s not really for you to decide.

Anyway, this is running in a mainstream paper today.

Varadkar can blame Britain all he likes – but he is the real threat to peace | Nick Timothy https://t.co/NF6JvfIl2y

— Telegraph Politics (@TelePolitics) August 20, 2019

Maybe you meant something less dismissive by “internal grievance” but I can only interpret the words in front of me.

The 'lol' was in response to the notion that voting Labour is somehow a difficult ethical act for you, 'despite all our issues with the party'.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Most of us know what we are putting in for government. Its almost as if you haven't read people complaining about the state of the PLP for the last few years.

That was in reference to criticism of Corbyn itt, not your take on anti-Irish sentiment in the UK.

xp

You are really showing how you "don't care" huh?

solid hit there.

is this your way of showing how you do?

Posting as I normally do.

The most recent prior criticism was that the thread was too critical, no real set of ideals beneath the picking apart of contradictory policy positions and critiques of various political postures. Like it was less than a week before the criticism that this is a nest of hardcore momentum cheerleading. Again and again various posters responded my reminding him of all the various things that Labour leadership has been criticised for itt (some of them are things that don't get nearly enough attention elsewhere) and again and again the critique rearticulated itself less as based on some actual basis and increasingly seemed to be based on some kneejerk distaste with the character of discussion. I literally don't mind at all there being a place to have a discussion about politics that takes for granted a social ideal that puts the welfare of most people ahead of the wealth hoarding ability of a tiny elite of the super-rich. I think its good to have a place that differences can be articulated and argued over without becoming a huge internal faultline that makes it impossible to recognise this common aspiration, and in a venue that is sufficiently private that it doesn't contribute to the internal disharmony that tends to fracture the left.

Its also true that when I've posted itt (far less frequently than most, but I read it quite often) the views expressed are my own and I'm not really sure how I could resolve this with pom's desire for this thread to express a more diverse or critical set of views about the labour leadership. Like these are the views I have? I think this is what's infuriating about these kinds of critiques. Like if you want to find people bashing corbyn just type fbpe into twitter or idk google jonathan freedland. Its true, this is also a venue anchored another set of values defined by the venn diagrams of views held by the posters. But these are the posters that are here. I don't think I'd ever bother tuning in to a discussion here about whether or not the welfare state just makes people more lazy. A certain internal coherence is the only thing that makes nuance possible in these sorts of discussions. That's why reality TV shows always get really boring when they become about EXTREME characters having screaming matches.

Just before the 2015 election, a labour canvasser came to my door (the mp for my constituency was not herself canvassing) and when I expressed antipathy toward certain labour positions at the time (in particular the tough on immigration posturing) the canvasser asked me if I was even eligible to vote in the election. Recently I've been feeling increasingly worried about the rising anti-Irish sentiment that is so nakedly expressed by politicians and in the media now and, coupled with the bizarre ignorance of (and even explicitly prejudicial attitudes toward) Ireland/N.Ireland that I've encountered while living here. (that famous channel 4 bit where nobody knew where the irish border was rings perfectly true in my experience and I've always found it really strange. I know its *a bit more nuanced than this* but that is not simply the ROI's border, its where our countries meet, ie. it is also YOUR border. Its also weird because surely you see it on the weather report like every night). Labour are the only party right now that can be trusted to safeguard the GF agreement and not to stoke sentiments of Ireland as an uppity vassal state that needs to be taken down a peg or two. The thought of what that sentiment might look like put into practice worries me. There are all kinds of conflictual things around this, and from my position what Brexit means and what it might entail are highly fraught and conflictual (not to rock the boat we're all in too much).

Anyway I apologise in advance but

That’s a booming post & no need to apologise

I literally don't mind at all there being a place to have a discussion about politics that takes for granted a social ideal that puts the welfare of most people ahead of the wealth hoarding ability of a tiny elite of the super-rich.

Agreed, but conflating this with support of Jeremy Corbyn isn't helpful.

EXTREME characters having screaming matches

The problem begins when mildly dissenting opinions are painted in such terms. The amount of caveats I include (aptly parodied by deems in his latest spin-off thread) to remind everyone that I am not concern-trolling and not coming at this from a Lib Dem perspective or whatever should in theory suffice, but alas…

And if you think certain posters of an infinitesimally (this needs to be emphasized, as there is in fact no significant source of disagreement among us) different political persuasion don't avoid this thread or reduce their contributions to a minimum because they're tired of getting gratuitously piled upon, that's awfully optimistic of you.

p.s.: btw, I'd be happy to see Corbyn win a GE.

xp I completely agree with the last full paragraph though!

So do I and so do we all, I assume.

I literally don't mind at all there being a place to have a discussion about politics that takes for granted a social ideal that puts the welfare of most people ahead of the wealth hoarding ability of a tiny elite of the super-rich.

Agreed, but conflating this with support of Jeremy Corbyn isn't helpful.

― Andrew Farrell, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 08:42 (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Okay, but name me another party that's pushing this line?

Which posters is this thread missing out on by virtue of our samethink?

It's not my place to name them.

fred, morbs, cutty, ddb, hstencil, connor smedley, doomie, jon williams, prom dressantino

"mildly dissenting opinions"

Is that how you call your day long tantrum? Okay then.

I mean if we’re missing out on people with legitimate concerns, that’s obviously a tragedy and Their Voices Must Be Heard.

More seriously...it’s a politics thread during a particularly fraught time. Politics is full of “robust debate” and as it should be, it’s literally life and death for some people. An MP was murdered in the street by a fascist and literally none of the anti-left discourse has dimmed. I would ask why people shouldn’t be angry or hold strong opinions?

That's fine, gyac. But then it's fair to expect some amount of pushback from the EU crowd as well, no?

Btw comrade alphabet, I daresay you should practice самокритика more often.

pom as Euler said, its just impossible to know what you actually WANT. You'd be happy to vote for corbyn bc you want a progressive shift in public policy but you are critical of certain decisions made by the labour party leadership in general and corbyn in particular during a period that you surely recognise has been fairly trying. I mean I think that's pretty much the consensus around here, in which case welcome to the groupthink. That's what's so infuriating about your position, you seem to want this to manifest as a general distaste of corbyn but if other people do not share your distaste well.... I also fail to see why it would be productive to share this distaste, like what would it enable? As major opposition to austerity goes, labour are the best bet. Same with a more ethical approach to international policy. The labour shadow cabinet have not been in government so have not had to opportunity to do anything as egregious as, say, taking unilateral military action against the large civilian population of another country and for that reason I find it hard to be as critical of them as I might be of New Labour. Any criticism I have is not going to be enough to make me go, what? Lib Dem?

I know you will interpret this as a policing of your dissent, but nobody would jump on you if you said "I think something different." The problem with the dissent you're offering is that you seem to be saying, "I find it somewhat distasteful that you all share a certain set of views." And that is how you have phrased your criticism. not at the views that people have espoused, but the fact that there is not enough variation in those views here. For one thing, shared views and ideals are a necessary pretext to the possibility of any kind of political action so I don't see consistency as itself a bad thing. And on top of that, the views here strike me as VERY particular. The consensus position here hardly lines up with any specific tangents that I know of in other venues.

xp also, most of the people addressing you *ARE* EU immigrants

Both the Tories and Labour judge that Brexit puts an end to EU freedom of movement. The "EU crowd", to use pomenitul's expression, then asks why Labour does not stand against Brexit. Does Labour want an end to EU freedom of movement in the UK? Do posters here want an end to EU freedom of movement in the UK?

it's about attitudes to migration in general, not just from the EU.

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, August 19, 2019 7:17 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I don't understand this. Before Brexit, migration to/from the EU was legal and simple. Is the thought that migration to/from elsewhere is better than EU migration? And/or that ending EU freedom of movement would improve migration to/from outside the EU?

always worth remembering this thread is not very british. I think there might be more irish posters than english posters

…who aren't especially pro-EU.

My argument, which I formulated repeatedly even though you claim not know to what I 'want', is that Corbyn is too ambiguous a Remainer for me to be fully on board with his Brexit policies, which doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote for him if I could.

We're almost at the point of peak sterility here.

careful, remember lord kelvin in 1897

the party’s* brexit policy. democratically agreed at conference as a compromise between the membership, unions and PLP and calibrated to not explode the 2017 coalition

anyone watch the mountbatten documentary ?

every family down our way had the zapruder tape tbh

…who aren't especially pro-EU.

The sheer, unadulterated hatred for FBPE or whatever is quite telling in that regard.

Like, yeah these people mostly suck and are utterly hypocritical, even as regards Remain, but the loathing heaped upon them by some here is just insane.

we don’t hate FBPE because they’re pro EU we hate them because they are all nuggets who are going to get us all killed

xp also, most of the people addressing you *ARE* EU immigrants

that reminds me

I dearly wish a reactivated IRA would sucessfully blow up that scumbag Johnson and his evil cabinet.
At least their useless, morally-empty lives would have served a purpose.

— MarcHayo #FBPE (@markhayo) August 20, 2019

xp to Euler

Many people voted for Brexit to end "immigration" in general, and in particular non-EU immigration (despite the fact that this has nothing to do EU membership the vote for brexit was for, at least some voters, a vote against non-white people moreso than a vote against middle-class europeans). The public was primed for this by Theresa May's extreme anti-immigrant policies while Home Secretary and the coalition and labour shadow cabinet-s bipartisan chest puffing hardmanning on this issue. This is part of the tangled mess that gave us brexit in the first place and its impossible to parse it meaningfully through logic. Rather, it is analogous to voting for Trump's tax breaks for the the superwealthy as a way of sticking it to the Washington/Wall St elites. The representational and practical aspects of policy is elided into something that is for the most part entirely contradictory.

Within this Labour have tried to be rather Janus-faced. Sticking to a line "freedom of movement ends when we leave the EU" that is intentionally slippery. "Freedom of movement" (an offical EU designated policy) ends (as the EU is no longer the officiating party) "when we leave the EU" (the terms of which could vary greatly). The line as espoused by Labour is, I think, intended to elude a betrayal narrative that the right-wing dominated press is intent on levelling at labour. It does not mean that some other equivalent set of freedoms (dictated by UK governement and therefore preserving UK sovereignty) could not be legislated by Labour. Of course this will be more precarious as not backed up by the EU.

In answer to your question about whether or not other migration from outside the EU was seen as MORE desirable. I think the images of the borders of Europe have made many people on the left more conscious of the limits of freedom of movement and the terrible violence that preserves its integrity at Europe's periphery, something likely to get ever worse with climate change. Labour's line plays to these people as well as avoiding this confrontation with the right-wing media at this point when it has become such a cheerleader for the current nativism of Tories.

i dont think its fair to criticize the thread (or to characterize the criticism of the thread) (are those z's both right? fuckit) as 'samethink'

i think that the x number of posters that are allowed to have tantrums - if thats what pom did (it isnt tbh) - in the thread and the eh spiteful reaction to any new cat dropped into the kitchen among this uneasy alliance is the issue x

xxp I saw an excellent thread contrasting he remain campaign and the repeal campaign that I now can’t find and it made the points about consensus building and winning over waverers and -shockingly - reached the same conclusion about a new referendum here. It’s entirely true and they’ll throw us under the bus.

I think it's worth remembering that pom's entrance into the thread yesterday consisted of an unfunny joke, according to him, about (((liberal democrats))) followed by a comment, directed at the entire thread I assume, about 'you tankies'. Not terribly clever or constructive.

But carry on with your Captain Save-a-Pom routine, deems, it's entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6QhAZckY8w

It was indeed unfunny, that much is certainly true.

some platitudinous, hackneyed blathering from Peter Reid (hey at least he's not Graham Souness with the evil glint in his eye for NDB!) on People's Vote in the indie today. But some truth in there that tin-eared Remain campaigners don't ever seem to learn about how condescending and dishonest they are at delivering their message. And perhaps reminding Leave voters of some of the interests of the greedy corrupt sociopaths they are aligning themselves with could be more productive than hectoring them about the annual GDP of London's FS sector or whatever. Perhaps the problem is corrupt greedy sociopaths from both sides of the EU ref campaigns don't like to attack each other too directly maybe, and keep it to the pantomime stuff for mass consumption.

My argument, which I formulated repeatedly even though you claim not know to what I 'want', is that Corbyn is too ambiguous a Remainer for me to be fully on board with his Brexit policies, which doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote for him if I could.

We're almost at the point of peak sterility here.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 09:13 (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Again. Except for the caveat that Labour's ambiguity on Brexit is in many ways a media construct (both more complex than a single soundbyte and with an in-built model of change) this is pretty much EXACTLY THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE HERE. Pro Labour generally but with plenty of caveats. Exactly the position that made another poster see this thread as only united through various critiques.

Practicing самокритика there Pom, cute.

But carry on with your Captain Save-a-Pom routine, deems, it's entertaining.

― Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 09:30 (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

^ gets it!

https://admitonefilmaddict.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/gladiator-e1470584300765.jpg?w=672&h=372&crop=1