Quentin Tarantino's Manson murders movie

Very nice post Veg! Your enthusiasm is infectious.

Well done, VG. Agree that Tommy James would have been perfect, especially, I'd say, "Crimson and Clover." Checked the date, and it was a '68 release that hit #1 in Feb. '69, which would coincide precisely with the first half of the film; I'm sure it was still all over the radio in the summer, though. I can imagine it cuing up, Scorsese-like, the first time Rick lays eyes on Sharon Tate (or, more sinister, the first time Cliff spots Margaret Qualley roadside...I have to refer to her as Margaret Qualley, I feel too silly calling her by her character's name).

Along the lines of the Terry Melcher/Paul Revere & the Raiders connection, a perfect song to use would've been "Don't Make Waves" by the Byrds, which was both a Terry Melcher production and the title song of a Sharon Tate film

"Hey Little Girl" might have been my least favourite song in the film. 1) It's literal to a degree that's clunky--we already get what the song spells out; 2) It reaches back to 1959. I know Tarantino was meticulous about consulting playlists--stations had solid-gold weekends back then, so I'm not saying it wouldn't have shown up on the radio in 1969. But it still felt anachronistic (I don't know what the next earliest thing was--"Summertime" would be my guess, and that was '66); 3) Personally, I don't think it's that great a song. I've got a Dee Clark compilation, and my favourite thing on there by far is a doo-wop song from when he was in the Kool Gents: "When I Call on You."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4getIwhd0I

KHJ was playing top 40 from multiple years, not just current, which i think was a bit part of its appeal?

Good interview here where QT talks about deciding to use the aircheck tapes:
https://blog.discogs.com/en/quentin-tarantino-is-as-proud-of-his-soundtracks-as-he-is-of-his-films/

Giggity...

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/08/02/once-upon-a-time-in-hollywood-actor-confirms-potential-4-hour-cut-for-netfl

Someone on the Facebook Expert Witness group just linked to online archives for a bunch of music publications, including Billboard, so if you scroll down to page 70 here, you can see the Top 100 for the Feb. 8, 1969 issue:

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Billboard/60s/1969/Billboard-1969-02-08.pdf

#1: "Crimson and Clover"
Songs that turn up in the film: I can only see "Ramblin' Gamblin' Man"--I likely missed something
Songs from the Top 100 I would prefer to songs in the film: many...

Maybe all those songs will be in the 4-hour cut.

FWIW, the Cocker version of "The Letter" was recorded & released in '70.

Same deal, August 9, 1969 issue:

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Billboard/60s/1969/Billboard%201969-08-09.pdf

#1: "In the Year 2525" (ugh--but Tommy James #2...)
#13: "Quentin's Theme"
Songs that turn up in the film: same caveat about maybe missing something--I'm skimming--but I don't see anything

So: VG will give me grief for this, but if your stated mission is to capture actual radio playlists from that moment, only including one song among the 200 that were actually on those two charts is an odd way to go about it. Was KHJ that radically different from other Top 40 stations in the country? Maybe it was, I don't know--I was listening to Toronto's 1050 CHUM in the backseat of my parents car at the time.

XP The Dion version of "Purple Haze" (#63 that week) would have been the most QT needledrop ever.

"No answer, just a question. Does Tarantino view the Manson women as two distinct groups--the murderous ones like Atkins, and the dippy space cadets like Margaret Qualley's character--or is it more fluid than that?"

I'm not sure. Taken as a group they are very mysterious as to motivation and where their heads are at; the only one who seems to break out of the spell is Uma Thurmond's daughter in the car at the end. I'm by no means a compulsive Manson-ologist but everything I've read over the years hasn't helped me understand them much better either; there are definitely some, like the woman who testified against them and wrote a book a few years ago, who seemed to be in that latter category, and a few who were in the former quality, and it's very hard to tell what the state of mind of any of them is like these days. Squeaky Fromme appears to be just as fucking weird as an old lady as she was as a youngster.

They should have a family reunion!

"in the former quality" wtf . in the former category.

So: VG will give me grief for this, but if your stated mission is to capture actual radio playlists from that moment, only including one song among the 200 that were actually on those two charts is an odd way to go about it.

...if your stated mission is to play excerpts of actual off-air tapes of that local radio station at that moment - and you did so! - how would playing needledrops of songs which the radio station was not playing have been a better way to go about it?

Was KHJ that radically different from other Top 40 stations in the country? Maybe it was, I don't know

Tarantino argues that thesis in the interview, which has been posted by two people itt already, but here's a third: https://blog.discogs.com/en/quentin-tarantino-is-as-proud-of-his-soundtracks-as-he-is-of-his-films/

Yeah part of the upshot of the article is that KHJ didnt just do billboard top 40, they did stuff that was popular in the local market/s, so songs that didnt go over nationally may get a lot of airplay on KHJ because ppl are calling in asking for it or it’s selling well locally etc

And he personally leaned towards the songs he heard from the tapes that werent *just* the big national hits

But I have to believe that the tapes he was working from also included a very healthy representation of those Billboard hits, along with the more local stuff--the Billboard charts were, after all, compiled from stations like KHJ, and (I'm guessing) the more powerful the station, the more influence on Billboard's charts. (Plus sales, plus payola, etc.--I know.) It just seems odd to me that "I'm going to really capture what that moment felt like" virtually bypasses the most popular songs in the country.

I think he split the difference between detached anthropologist and the kind of subjectivity that guides something like the Reservoir Dogs soundtrack. He's faithfully working from tapes, but--with occasional departures like "Mrs. Robinson" (in some ways the weirdest thing on the soundtrack, in that it's so famous and so identified with another movie)--he's sticking to esoterica. (Just finished typing...VG arrives at the same point.)

you kind of have to get QT and his deal

QT will never go for the national hit unless there’s a really good reason cinematically
he’s a contrarian at heart, and says all the time, “everyone liked the Beatles, i liked Dave Clark Five”
someone talkked about Sat Nite Fever strack and he said he preferred the Thank God Its Friday soundtrack

plus and if he goes for the national hits then his soundtrack becomes just another 60’s strack

the uniqueness adds a lot to the movie imo

Uniqueness, yes. Maximum effectiveness...I'd say no, not if you're forcing yourself to bypass "Crimson and Clover" and "Everyday People" for a good-not-great Los Bravos song. My own preference is a mix of the popular and the obscure that opts for the best song at the right moment.

I'm nitpicking, nitpicking, nitpicking...I like the film.

Personally I dont miss the big hits. Abd it just makes me think well it’s not a 24/7 thing, maybe they play the hits in the in-between-moments we dont see

A great thing about the aircheck is that there’s a run of like 4 songs on the official soundtrack where the day & times are in sequence “heyyy its 3:31 on Sunday”... “that was xxx it’s 3:34”

it’s so cool

Was KHJ that radically different from other Top 40 stations in the country? Maybe it was, I don't know

Dunno about radically different, but http://www.oldiesloon.com/ has an archive of various market charts. I've been listening to the top 40s of KHJ and Chicago's WLS frequently over the past three years (to mark 1966-1969) and have noticed at least a bit of variance, mostly local bands big in one market that don't appear in another.

It just seems odd to me that "I'm going to really capture what that moment felt like" virtually bypasses the most popular songs in the country.

the film is not called Once Upon A Time In The Rest Of The Country tbf

(Also must add my praise to VegemiteGrrl's blog post, exactly the kind of stuff I love to read!)

yes, VG, it was wonderful

And others', I hasten to add — I left the film not quite sure how I felt, aesthetics aside, and reading the commentary here and on the blogs posted has given me some good stuff to ponder. Will have to watch again with all that in mind.

xxpost aw thanks you guys <3

Way back in this thread I mentioned seeing the dire Hillary Duff vehicle The Haunting of Sharon Tate, and am amused to recall that it essentially had the same ending as OUATIH: after showing us the murder as it actually happened, the film doubles back into a fantasy/alternate reality where Tate et al manage to kill off the attackers, mostly as an excuse to show us the mayhem twice. Would have love to see the director's face when he watched Tarantino's film...

Cosign on Veg's essay. She reminded me of the Royal Guardsmen bit, and I was laughing all over again.

I've been listening to the top 40s of KHJ and Chicago's WLS frequently over the past three years (to mark 1966-1969) and have noticed at least a bit of variance, mostly local bands big in one market that don't appear in another.

Independent Regional Distribution was still a thing, as was, in some markets, Payola. Chicago was notorious for that, and was one of the last markets to get 'cleaned up' in the '70s.

the soundtrack seemed like stuff my parents would have actually heard a lot or listened to intentionally, and they were in the midst of high school at the time. dad loved mitch ryder

mitch ryder RULES

i am resigned to the fact that my musical taste is basically three generations worth of dad rock

haven't read the thread since Wednesday evening when I thought I was going to have an aneurysm but I just saw this again and here are some things I noticed the second time:

"Treat Her Right" by Roy Head & the Traits is stuck in my head and I hope it never leaves.

Some things I noticed this time:
-Rick's stutter (no idea how I missed this the first time)
-Everyone is always watching TV
-First sound we hear is a needle stuck in the runoff groove of a record, and that's exactly the place that Rick and Cliff are in their lives when we meet them
-Cliff's wife is actually named Natalie, didn't realize the Wagner/Wood reference was so explicit
-Shot Sharon waking up on the second day quotes Brigitte Bardot in the opening of Contempt
-Julia Butters' (little girl) stunt double!
-Maya Hawke (daughter of Uma Thurman & Ethan Hawke) as Linda Kasabian!
-Sharon petting the Maltese Falcon in the bookstore
-There's an upward tilt on a white church (or theater?) toward the beginning with some WILD old school Cinemascope spatial distortion
-the Qualley/Pitt car scene obviously quotes Save the Tiger as note upthread
-Casting so many young actors, children of actors, and the Julia Butters character are the only shreds of optimism here for our world. It echoes the transience and cruel indifference of time that John Ford explored so often.

if your stated mission is to capture actual radio playlists from that moment

wdn't ever confuse this joker's "stated mission" with his actual mission

his films remake the world in his image; that's why I don't go

and yet

and yet I saw the first fucking 6 films, so don't tell me

Altman zooms!

https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/8525796/3-paul-revere-raiders-mark-lindsay-once-upon-time-hollywood

“We wrote ‘Good Thing’ under the beam where the rope was apparently thrown over Sharon and Jay’s necks,” says Lindsay, still astounded by the extreme violence. “When we heard about what occurred, it was the biggest shock of my life because that was the last place that I could ever think something bad could have happened.”

I've got a few thoughts on the film.

The band began as a lark between him and Revere (real name: Paul Revere Dick)

That's quite something...The Raiders' "Him Or Me – What's It Gonna Be?" belongs to a genre I invented--yes, me--called Imitation Monkees, made up of excellent Monkees imitations wherein the creators may or may not be oblivious to the irony of imitating the Monkees. Also: the Five Americans' "Western Union," the Move's "Wave the Flag and Stop the Train," and the Lewis & Clarke Expedition's "Destination Unknown." I get stuck there--it's a small genre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuXcfa2OKqU

excellent Monkees imitations wherein the creators may or may not be oblivious to the irony of imitating the Monkees

At least in the Raiders' case, they were probably oblivious because they thought they were ripping "19th Nervous Breakdown"--era Stones (more obvious on their prior single "Ups & Downs"), but instead landed on Monkee Island. Used alot of the same session players too.

So this week my 13-y.o. daughter and her two friends were away for several days at a friend's family's beach house, and on Thursday the dad decided to take them to see a movie. He read "Brad Pitt," "Leonardio Decaprio," "Once Upon a Time"—noted that it was rated R, but they had seen R movies before—and decided that would work, dropped them off at the theater.

The ticket person refused to sell them tickets, because they are 13. So they bought tickets to some kids movie just to get in. My daughter has no idea about the Manson family, none of the historical context. Her takeaway: 1) it seemed like just a nice movie almost all the way through; 2) right at the end it got suddenly super violent without much warning, and for reasons that weren't clear; and 3) the crowd full of "old people" seemed not to react at all to this terrible violence, and this seeming indifference struck them as completely absurd and made them laugh, though really they were laughing nervously and were considerably dismayed.

I was preparing to send an email to this guy, like, do your due diligence wtf, but he preempted with a thoughtful apology of his own, said he had no idea it was Tarantino or what the movie was about : /

and now I guess I'm going to have to subject myself to it as well just to understand what she saw

also she said "but daddy I don't understand what the function of this movie was, or what the fillmaker's purpose is, it seems like mere culture fetishization, a pastiche of empty period references pretending to describe the american experience ironically by foregrounding its hollowness and superficiality, but inadvertently exposing the his own vapidity, revealing the extent to which his own, poor sense of self is contingent on arbitrary pop signifiers"

(I really didn't come in here to throw bombs, sorry I can't help it! I will tell her that Reservoir Dogs is p tight and to check that out in a few years)

idk 13 is like prime Tarantino years

also she said "but daddy I don't understand what the function of this movie was, or what the fillmaker's purpose is, it seems like mere culture fetishization, a pastiche of empty period references pretending to describe the american experience ironically by foregrounding its hollowness and superficiality, but inadvertently exposing the his own vapidity, revealing the extent to which his own, poor sense of self is contingent on arbitrary pop signifiers"

flappy xp I think you are right, shld be his wheelhouse demographic

Saw this twice. Enjoyed, feels somewhat slight. Agree with Alfred that Spahn Ranch is best orchestrated scene.

Seeing Luke Perry made me sad.

Mike Moh really had Lee's voice down, except for the fighting wails. Too loud and exaggerated rather than the menacing, constricted ones Lee was famous for.

the guy's face gets bashed in at the ranch, that's pretty violent, maybe not compared to the end.