2020 Democratic presidential primary

Fred B how much is it?

xpost That's called corporate taxes and I'd rather have large public corporations pay for everyone not just their employees.

no i was speaking in addition to regular corporate taxes and it not being something that can be evaded in any manner. It would go into a federal healthcare fund.

Speaking from a country with single payer, it's incredibly expensive, and middle class taxes absolutely goes up. And the Sanders plan was much more generous than any single payer plan I know of anywhere, including dental coverage, etc. I don't get this discussion at all.

― Frederik B, Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:28 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

“goes up” from what?

daerest america expert fred,

you might recall that people in america are allergic to taxes going up bc it means people of color are getting resources that white people arent and the majority of american history is white people pilfering from people of color, so it upsets the balance (ie conservatism)

white ppl oppose policies they perceive as benefiting someone else more, even if it benefits themselves too. talking about rising taxes (poc are taking this from me for something they want) and not lowering health care costs (i am not paying anything extra for this new service) is an important part of getting enough buy-in. its stupid, but so is american racism.

you do realize that the united states pays, as a percentage of its GDP and per capita, much more than countries with single payer, do you not

Yerac

In Quebec, it's a 27% tax rate for anyone making between 12k and 49k (somewhere along those numbers). It passes the 50% threshold once the household earns more than 90k. The health care is pretty comprehensive here, but it doesn't cover dental and optometry. Medication costs are capped at 100$ per month I believe.

xpost and yes that is what I meant, that instead of them paying for their own employees they would contribute to everyone. I don't know if that is already part of someone's plan though. Not that many people have a plan.

In Denmark, the lowest income tax rate is 36% and sales tax is 25%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/

löööööööööööööööl fred denmark spends less public $$ per capita than the us on health care. taxes absolutely dont have to go up if they would simply control costs using monopsony power.

denmark has a much more generous system of "entitlements", to use the american parlance, also, does it not?

taxes will go up under a single-payer plan, I think this is inarguable

it is totally arguable! we're already one of the highest paying national governments in the health care sector! its just we pay almost twice that amount to the rent-seeking parasites that are private insurance companies!

xpost and yes that is what I meant, that instead of them paying for their own employees they would contribute to everyone. I don't know if that is already part of someone's plan though. Not that many people have a plan.

― Yerac, Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:39 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

gotcha.

in Denmark, sales tax pay YOU

xxp sorry, to clarify, we pay about the same amount in taxes as we do privately which has the effect of doubling the cost.

what do we think of Jay Inslee here on ilxor.com

I know he's another super long shot in a field crammed with 'em but I like the idea of climate change being a candidate's first, second, and third priority. is it worth donating to him or should I just give it to Liz?

My last firm which had a huge number of employees and let you choose from the major insurance companies (United, Aetna, Signa, BCBS) also employed a health advocate that would argue with the insurance company for you. It was kind of amazing how much we accept that for profit health companies would never work for you.

denmark has a much more generous system of "entitlements", to use the american parlance, also, does it not?

― bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), 1. august 2019 19:41 (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Definitely! Though I get a bit confused, because the way I'd see it, free health care is absolutely an 'entitlement'. And it's looked at quite like that, the middle class pays more, so that poor people don't die due to lack of care. It's just baffling to me to try and sell it as something that would lower costs for the middle class, so while it might be the case, I'm surprised everyone one in this thread seems 100% certain that it's the case, and get's angry when WaPo says otherwise.

I think people need to stop referring to a "middle class" and actually speak about income because I think most americans have no clue what the middle class is anymore and just assume if they aren't living in poverty or making multi millions every year, they are the middle class.

xxp sorry, to clarify, we pay about the same amount in taxes as we do privately which has the effect of doubling the cost.

― Carisis LaVerted (m bison), Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:46 PM (twenty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

But if a single payer system passes, the presently uninsured people who are going to have to be paid for. Then you have to cancel the taxes that insurances companies bring in because of the large and lucrative work force is going to be redundant.

There is reasons why this is complicated and debated.

fred, m bison just penned you a letter explaining why American progressives would "try and sell it as something that would lower costs for the middle class"

Tracer how is the system in France? I've only ever purchased inhalers there. (5 euro).

VHS, presumably that vast workforce would be in pole position for new, federal, unionized jobs in an expanded medicare bureaucracy :)

Yerac it's like a regular insurance plan with fairly high deductibles, which most people pay for with add-on private insurance

what do we think of Jay Inslee here on ilxor.com
I know he's another super long shot in a field crammed with 'em but I like the idea of climate change being a candidate's first, second, and third priority. is it worth donating to him or should I just give it to Liz?

― frogbs, Thursday, August 1, 2019 12:46 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

jay inslee is great, you should donate to him. in a political era where things like record, experience, and effectiveness as an executive meant a shit, he'd actually have a good shot at the nomination.

fred, m bison just penned you a letter explaining why American progressives would "try and sell it as something that would lower costs for the middle class"

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), 1. august 2019 19:53 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It just seems like it would be a better fight to tackle racism head on, instead of lying to the racists and then act all indignant when the media refuses to play along...

Tracer, France is different than either single payer or the Netherlands/Biden proposal, right?

I have la citoyenneté and I don’t even know that.

We have add on private insurance in chile. I just wing it when I am in the states because I figure you can just put my body back on a plane somehow to get me back to chile if I need a procedure. I tell people here how in the states you can have insurance and then get a crazy bill months later because your insurance company didn't cover something and no one knows how much any drug or procedure costs from place to place.

thanks voodoo

I've only read a little bit about Inslee and he seems fairly legit, I know he hasn't got a shot but I think him raising way more than the other dudes polling at 0-1% would send some kind of message

red, m bison just penned you a letter explaining why American progressives would "try and sell it as something that would lower costs for the middle class"

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), 1. august 2019 19:53 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It just seems like it would be a better fight to tackle racism head on, instead of lying to the racists and then act all indignant when the media refuses to play along...

― Frederik B, Thursday, August 1, 2019 12:57 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

FRIEND WEVE GOTTA LIFT AS WE CLIMB HERE OK

xp frogbs I highly recommend listening to Chris Hayes's recent podcast interview with Inslee. Impressive dude.

I was just looking up the US tax brackets again and they all seem fairly low but then I guess you have to remember that a lot of states and some cities have their own income taxes, but there are also so many deductions that you can take to lower your net income.

Gravel campaign winding down, donations getting redirected to Flint.

Were we ever sure he was aware that his accounts had been hacked?

what do we think of Jay Inslee here on ilxor.com
I know he's another super long shot in a field crammed with 'em but I like the idea of climate change being a candidate's first, second, and third priority. is it worth donating to him or should I just give it to Liz?
― frogbs, Thursday, August 1, 2019 12:46 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

jay inslee is great, you should donate to him. in a political era where things like record, experience, and effectiveness as an executive meant a shit, he'd actually have a good shot at the nomination.
― jakey mo collier (voodoo chili), Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:56 PM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

^^^^^^^

I like the idea of donating to Inslee just to keep his message in these debates.

VHS as far as i am aware the French government is the single payer and the private insurance companies primarily exist to cover deductibles, as well as to give gold-plated coverage to poshos

the private part is called "la mutuelle" and of course those vary widely in terms of coverage and can be an enormous pain in the ass

xp frogbs I highly recommend listening to Chris Hayes's recent podcast interview with Inslee. Impressive dude.

okay just finishing it and yeah, he's very good. not only does he get the urgency but he actually seems to have a legitimate plan to confront it. I know he's a longshot but I hope he makes a huge splash, this is exactly the kind of thinking we need for Hellworld 2020

my family of three (where I'm the only employed person; well my wife freelances but doesn't have a normal 'job') pays $15k a year for health, dental, and vision; that includes the premiums (pretax) and the deductibles and the bullshit 'cost-sharing' after the deductibles are met. I'd be surprised if my taxes went up $15k a year to pay for single payer. Maybe they would but I kind of doubt it.

also presumably my job might be able to afford to pay me more or hire more people if they didn't have to pay the rest of the costs that fall on them for each of these things.

Inslee won't be president but if a Dem wins and picks him to head the EPA or Energy I think that would be a great outcome.

Does Yang have a single idea other than UBI?

xp Yeah evol, though imo Energy would be better than EPA. We need him helping to build the new energy economy.

Inslee won't be president but if a Dem wins and picks him to head the EPA or Energy I think that would be a great outcome.

― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Thursday, August 1, 2019 12:19 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'd selfishly rather he run for WA Sen

He should be President of the Earth, really.

Does Yang have a single idea other than UBI?

UBI is the cornerstone, but yes, no-tie has tons of ideas.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/

Does Yang have a single idea other than UBI?

yes: ROBOTS!

Yang wants to tax corporations too, I think.