2020 Democratic presidential primary

and when she said that, matthews said "YEAH BUT TAXES WTF"

it’s just as “scary” when left unsaid. this notion that there’s a way for progressives to sneak through massive change without addressing the objections seems delusional to me.

winning an election is one thing - where you absolutely can skirt objections if you're forceful enough with your message/a good enough messenger (Trump providing zero details, outright lies, etc.) Getting the legislation through Congress is where you deal with the objections. First things first.

I think Warren can easily handle Matthews.

Sanders has acknowledged that taxes will go up: has the sky fallen on him?

the fundamental problem is the perceived continuum between centrist and progressive ideas, when people's stances do not fall neatly on that continuum. I've linked this study what feels like a million times, but it illustrates this pretty well, especially on medicare: https://web.stanford.edu/~dbroock/published%20paper%20PDFs/broockman%20approaches%20to%20studying%20representation.pdf

(caveat that I don't link it to be optimistic; the results do skew substantially "progressive" on health care, but on immigration the overwhelmingly most favored opinion is one step removed, if that, from Donald Trump)

thank you for the link katherine!

I understand the sense that appearing to dodge the raising taxes question seems suboptimal but still think it's considerably preferable to admitting taxes will go up. everything is about soundbites and only one of those avenues opens you up to one. more importantly, I don't see any reason for Warren to treat these questions with good faith when it's abundantly clear someone like Chris Matthews is not operating in good faith himself. he's not an idiot, he understands what she's saying and that it makes sense. he's 100% just looking for a soundbite, it contributes absolutely nothing to the debate.

also, this may be my speaking as a freelancer, to whom "your taxes are going to go up" is not entirely meaningful because my taxes depend on that year's particular groverhaus of 1099 vs. W-2 income, but I suspect most people do one of two things:

1) interpret "your taxes are going to go up!" purely based on whether their tax return in the following year was higher or lower, any other reasons for fluctuation be damned, or
2) interpret "your taxes are going to go up!" in the abstract, on faith, regardless of how long it will take to enact or what other factors might affect one's individual taxes. even if they did in fact pay more in taxes after the GOP bill, it's OK, because they would have paid even more in the hypothetical event it wasn't passed

the upshot of this, unfortunately, is that there's no good way to talk about it

Forgive me if this is so naive/basic that it's meaningless, but I think it could be powerful to reframe the whole taxes convo as, people wouldn't resent taxation if they perceived the value of where their taxes were going? If, when you needed programs & services, they were there for you, the Average Person, and were accessed easily and affordably.

Idk exactly how else that might look but I agree that lots of ppl are just totally phobic and shut down re all discussion about "taxes" and I think for there to be positive movement we need a new discourse.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/kamala-harris-criminal-justice.html

op ed in nytimes about harris' record as prosecutor/attorney general

Forgive me if this is so naive/basic that it's meaningless, but I think it could be powerful to reframe the whole taxes convo as, people wouldn't resent taxation if they perceived the value of where their taxes were going? If, when you needed programs & services, they were there for you, the Average Person, and were accessed easily and affordably.

they sort of do, unfortunately it's in the form of (news story in which someone vaguely related to government does something a person doesn't like) "your tax dollars at work!" comments

"v old character disingenuous op/ed" you forgot to add

xp

er character

I think a better approach is probably to frame taxes as one of several fixed costs, the total amount of which will not increase as a result of m4a

medicare for some, miniature american flags for others!

Or just go full Japan and not give a shit about the deficit ever again, it seems to work for republicans when they are in power.

american paying $1000 a month for healthcare - "m4a would mean raising my taxes!"

Speaking from a country with single payer, it's incredibly expensive, and middle class taxes absolutely goes up. And the Sanders plan was much more generous than any single payer plan I know of anywhere, including dental coverage, etc. I don't get this discussion at all.

single payer owns imo

xp The discussion is more about how to convince people that the tax raise will be offset by lots of other benefits.

any for profit company with ># employees should be mandated to pay a percentage every year in lieu of providing health insurance for employees (if it goes that route). Plus the whole insane military spending needs to be addressed but amerca has too much fear of not fetishizing the military. Just like they fetishize a fear of taxes.

Fred B how much is it?

xpost That's called corporate taxes and I'd rather have large public corporations pay for everyone not just their employees.

no i was speaking in addition to regular corporate taxes and it not being something that can be evaded in any manner. It would go into a federal healthcare fund.

Speaking from a country with single payer, it's incredibly expensive, and middle class taxes absolutely goes up. And the Sanders plan was much more generous than any single payer plan I know of anywhere, including dental coverage, etc. I don't get this discussion at all.

― Frederik B, Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:28 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

“goes up” from what?

daerest america expert fred,

you might recall that people in america are allergic to taxes going up bc it means people of color are getting resources that white people arent and the majority of american history is white people pilfering from people of color, so it upsets the balance (ie conservatism)

white ppl oppose policies they perceive as benefiting someone else more, even if it benefits themselves too. talking about rising taxes (poc are taking this from me for something they want) and not lowering health care costs (i am not paying anything extra for this new service) is an important part of getting enough buy-in. its stupid, but so is american racism.

you do realize that the united states pays, as a percentage of its GDP and per capita, much more than countries with single payer, do you not

Yerac

In Quebec, it's a 27% tax rate for anyone making between 12k and 49k (somewhere along those numbers). It passes the 50% threshold once the household earns more than 90k. The health care is pretty comprehensive here, but it doesn't cover dental and optometry. Medication costs are capped at 100$ per month I believe.

xpost and yes that is what I meant, that instead of them paying for their own employees they would contribute to everyone. I don't know if that is already part of someone's plan though. Not that many people have a plan.

In Denmark, the lowest income tax rate is 36% and sales tax is 25%.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/

löööööööööööööööl fred denmark spends less public $$ per capita than the us on health care. taxes absolutely dont have to go up if they would simply control costs using monopsony power.

denmark has a much more generous system of "entitlements", to use the american parlance, also, does it not?

taxes will go up under a single-payer plan, I think this is inarguable

it is totally arguable! we're already one of the highest paying national governments in the health care sector! its just we pay almost twice that amount to the rent-seeking parasites that are private insurance companies!

xpost and yes that is what I meant, that instead of them paying for their own employees they would contribute to everyone. I don't know if that is already part of someone's plan though. Not that many people have a plan.

― Yerac, Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:39 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

gotcha.

in Denmark, sales tax pay YOU

xxp sorry, to clarify, we pay about the same amount in taxes as we do privately which has the effect of doubling the cost.

what do we think of Jay Inslee here on ilxor.com

I know he's another super long shot in a field crammed with 'em but I like the idea of climate change being a candidate's first, second, and third priority. is it worth donating to him or should I just give it to Liz?

My last firm which had a huge number of employees and let you choose from the major insurance companies (United, Aetna, Signa, BCBS) also employed a health advocate that would argue with the insurance company for you. It was kind of amazing how much we accept that for profit health companies would never work for you.

denmark has a much more generous system of "entitlements", to use the american parlance, also, does it not?

― bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), 1. august 2019 19:41 (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Definitely! Though I get a bit confused, because the way I'd see it, free health care is absolutely an 'entitlement'. And it's looked at quite like that, the middle class pays more, so that poor people don't die due to lack of care. It's just baffling to me to try and sell it as something that would lower costs for the middle class, so while it might be the case, I'm surprised everyone one in this thread seems 100% certain that it's the case, and get's angry when WaPo says otherwise.

I think people need to stop referring to a "middle class" and actually speak about income because I think most americans have no clue what the middle class is anymore and just assume if they aren't living in poverty or making multi millions every year, they are the middle class.

xxp sorry, to clarify, we pay about the same amount in taxes as we do privately which has the effect of doubling the cost.

― Carisis LaVerted (m bison), Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:46 PM (twenty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

But if a single payer system passes, the presently uninsured people who are going to have to be paid for. Then you have to cancel the taxes that insurances companies bring in because of the large and lucrative work force is going to be redundant.

There is reasons why this is complicated and debated.

fred, m bison just penned you a letter explaining why American progressives would "try and sell it as something that would lower costs for the middle class"

Tracer how is the system in France? I've only ever purchased inhalers there. (5 euro).

VHS, presumably that vast workforce would be in pole position for new, federal, unionized jobs in an expanded medicare bureaucracy :)

Yerac it's like a regular insurance plan with fairly high deductibles, which most people pay for with add-on private insurance

what do we think of Jay Inslee here on ilxor.com
I know he's another super long shot in a field crammed with 'em but I like the idea of climate change being a candidate's first, second, and third priority. is it worth donating to him or should I just give it to Liz?

― frogbs, Thursday, August 1, 2019 12:46 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

jay inslee is great, you should donate to him. in a political era where things like record, experience, and effectiveness as an executive meant a shit, he'd actually have a good shot at the nomination.

fred, m bison just penned you a letter explaining why American progressives would "try and sell it as something that would lower costs for the middle class"

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), 1. august 2019 19:53 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It just seems like it would be a better fight to tackle racism head on, instead of lying to the racists and then act all indignant when the media refuses to play along...

Tracer, France is different than either single payer or the Netherlands/Biden proposal, right?

I have la citoyenneté and I don’t even know that.

We have add on private insurance in chile. I just wing it when I am in the states because I figure you can just put my body back on a plane somehow to get me back to chile if I need a procedure. I tell people here how in the states you can have insurance and then get a crazy bill months later because your insurance company didn't cover something and no one knows how much any drug or procedure costs from place to place.