2020 Democratic presidential primary

warren and sanders: under m4a you will pay less money bc u wont be paying premiums anymore and the gov can control the cost of health care like they do in many other countries whose health care is better
dem voters: FINALLY
establishment dems: oh you like this idea?
bad faith gop: but what about taxes
establishment dems: OH SHIT WHAT ABOUT TAXES

― Carisis LaVerted (m bison), Thursday, August 1, 2019 10:03 AM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

idk if it was posted here but this bullshit played out perfectly after Tuesday's debate with Chris Matthews incessantly grilling Warren about whether M4All would cause taxes to go up. It's really sickening to have to see everyone play this very transparent game, where the media is just so desperate not to inform people about a specific issue but just to trap a candidate in a gotcha! moment they can then spend the next year and a half obsessing over. I don't blame Liz but it sucks that she can't give an inch on saying "yes your taxes might go up" because she's smart enough to know that would be the ONLY takeaway from the whole conversation, not the very relevant fact that overall household expenses would significantly decrease. idk who to blame more, the average citizen for being so dumb and easily played that they would immediately latch onto any intimation of increased taxes and rail against it reflexively as an evil, or the media for making them that way.

Matthews is and always has been a hideous mouthbreather. Why MSDNC isn't held at a similar reputational level as Fox I'm not sure.

I don't even get MSNBC anymore and I can't say I've missed it. Chris Hayes is the only redeemable person on that network and I can get plenty of him from Twitter and his podcast, which are both superior to his TV show anyway.

employer: it’s about time we gave you a big raise.

employee: no thanks.

employer: why not?

employee: my taxes will go up.

I know people who have said things like that!!!

do these people know how marginal tax rates work or...

no

MOAR TAX BAD

And yet, analogously, it’s around this basic, pre-k level understanding of health care costs and taxes that the Dem debate is still stuck at. It’s maddening.

*choir preaching mode fade-out*

idk if someone already shared this maddening exchange between warren and chris matthews:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlHik6YAPns

i sort of understand why liz doesn't want to make a blanket statement like "your savings on monthly premiums will more than offset your raise in taxes," but isn't that at least mostly true?

i hate chris matthews

do these people know how marginal tax rates work or...

― Carisis LaVerted (m bison), Thursday, August 1, 2019 10:34 AM (twenty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Transferring to a single payer system, there is still going to millions and millions of americans who will both have tax raise and lose their cozy private health insurance. It is going to be really hard to convince to let go of both liquid and that insurance. And as much a think single payer is the best system available, it is a legit concern considering how bruising it was getting the ACA to exist.

srsly fuck Chris Mathews but I don't think there's anything to be gained by not answering this question. It's not like it's going to go away. Now, in fact, is the right time to do it, to get ppl inured to the taxes part during primary season so that it can't be weaponized as effecively later.

Just come out with it about the taxes and start messaging hard, full-time, about the net savings. Explaining policy is one of her strengths.

Otm

https://frinkiac.com/video/S06E21/VGBAgrpe1xA9CbrSltx21I2zAbo=.gif

https://frinkiac.com/meme/S06E21/857556.jpg?b64lines=IFRIRSBUQVhFUyEgVEhFIEZJTkdFUgogVEhJTkcgTUVBTlMgVEhFIFRBWEVTLg==

In a strange way I think Bernie has inoculated himself against the same problem by his refusal (or inabaility?) to qualify "Socialism."

Whether or not by design, his puzzling and frustrating failure to explain—as loudly and repetitively as he does income inequality—that we already have socialist policies and that he is, in fact, a capitalist, has paid a dividend in his never having to apologize or backtrack.

Transferring to a single payer system, there is still going to millions and millions of americans who will both have tax raise and lose their cozy private health insurance. It is going to be really hard to convince to let go of both liquid and that insurance. And as much a think single payer is the best system available, it is a legit concern considering how bruising it was getting the ACA to exist.

― Van Horn Street, Thursday, August 1, 2019 11:01 AM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

and recycling republican talking points like this helps no one

people dislike taxes not because they’re taxes (ok, some people have ideological reasons), but because it’s money out of their paycheck and out of their pocket. under a compressive single payer plan like the one sanders proposes, taxes for the middle class would increase, but they would no longer be paying premiums, deductibles, or copays. they are not on balance losing money in this deal and it is so infuriating to focus on “taxes” as if that is the only fixed cost families deal with

i'd hardly describe my health insurance as "cozy." more of "a scam" really

which is why i think it's good that warren didn't succumb to matthews' badgering--he was just trying to get a soundbite of warren saying 'i'm gonna raise taxes'

right. and warren not answering matthews' bad faith question was shrewd in order to protect the idea from becoming "dEmOcRaTs WaNnA rAiSe YoUr TaXeS!!!!"

xp lol

republicans want to turn the m4a debate into: higher taxes and they take away the medicare for olds

the thing is they are gonna do that ANYWAY. It's not a soundbite you can dodge for sixteen months. They'll just sub in her stammering, bumbling refusal to answer the question, which will play just as bad, but with none of the advantages of clearly explaining the policy.

which isn't to say she should succumb to Matherws' or anybody else's hectoring but get out in front with it of her own volition, on the stump, and deprive them the "gotcha"

she wasn't stumbling imo, she was reacting to matthews constant interruptions--imagine if trump had one reporter do anything similar to him when he was campaigning.

yeah the wifi password is joe three oh three oh three (spelled out)

— 'Weird Alex' Pareene (@pareene) August 1, 2019

xp she has good reason not to answer the question but the repeated refusal is not a good look and it won't benefit her in the long run

She's good at explaining stuff. She needs to explain some more

American voters on the whole don't like having things explained to them, they prefer to be entertained.

then she should explain with an educational rap

can't let booker beat her to that winning idea

M4A Dems need to absolutely address this head-on. If you’re going to offer bold visions and plans you cannot shrink from fully making the case, which necessarily includes addressing the most common objections. And if you limit your public statements to “that which cannot be turned into an opposition soundbite” you will not sell your vision.

Warren has the chops to educate the public on this, even within the constraints of the debate format; I hope next time she comes prepared to do so.

American voters:

https://media1.tenor.com/images/1953116d3af8fdb6865b789a4af1dca6/tenor.gif?itemid=5612349

If you’re going to offer bold visions and plans you cannot shrink from fully making the case, which necessarily includes addressing the most common objections.

counterpoint: 'build the wall'

yes. broad strokes/big ideas presented in an entertaining way, that's the key. this is why Bernie is as successful as he is, ditto Trump, ditto Obama etc

there's a certain portion of the electorate - including me and most of us here - that are very interested in policy and details and arguments over such things, but we are not the broader electorate

It’s really not that complicated to simply say that the reduction in premiums etc will more than offset any bump in the taxes.

Marianne Williamson is going to win the meme campaign unless the mainstream candidates hire some meme consultants

NB "medicare for all" was memed from obscurity into the limelight in three short years

xp likely disprovable in a host of individual instances and easy to scare people with

It’s really not that complicated to simply say that the reduction in premiums etc will more than offset any bump in the taxes.

― never have i been a blue calm sea (collardio gelatinous), Thursday, August 1, 2019 11:04 AM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

she basically said that, but did not come out and directly say "i will raise taxes"

and when she said that, matthews said "YEAH BUT TAXES WTF"

it’s just as “scary” when left unsaid. this notion that there’s a way for progressives to sneak through massive change without addressing the objections seems delusional to me.

winning an election is one thing - where you absolutely can skirt objections if you're forceful enough with your message/a good enough messenger (Trump providing zero details, outright lies, etc.) Getting the legislation through Congress is where you deal with the objections. First things first.

I think Warren can easily handle Matthews.

Sanders has acknowledged that taxes will go up: has the sky fallen on him?

the fundamental problem is the perceived continuum between centrist and progressive ideas, when people's stances do not fall neatly on that continuum. I've linked this study what feels like a million times, but it illustrates this pretty well, especially on medicare: https://web.stanford.edu/~dbroock/published%20paper%20PDFs/broockman%20approaches%20to%20studying%20representation.pdf

(caveat that I don't link it to be optimistic; the results do skew substantially "progressive" on health care, but on immigration the overwhelmingly most favored opinion is one step removed, if that, from Donald Trump)

thank you for the link katherine!

I understand the sense that appearing to dodge the raising taxes question seems suboptimal but still think it's considerably preferable to admitting taxes will go up. everything is about soundbites and only one of those avenues opens you up to one. more importantly, I don't see any reason for Warren to treat these questions with good faith when it's abundantly clear someone like Chris Matthews is not operating in good faith himself. he's not an idiot, he understands what she's saying and that it makes sense. he's 100% just looking for a soundbite, it contributes absolutely nothing to the debate.

also, this may be my speaking as a freelancer, to whom "your taxes are going to go up" is not entirely meaningful because my taxes depend on that year's particular groverhaus of 1099 vs. W-2 income, but I suspect most people do one of two things:

1) interpret "your taxes are going to go up!" purely based on whether their tax return in the following year was higher or lower, any other reasons for fluctuation be damned, or
2) interpret "your taxes are going to go up!" in the abstract, on faith, regardless of how long it will take to enact or what other factors might affect one's individual taxes. even if they did in fact pay more in taxes after the GOP bill, it's OK, because they would have paid even more in the hypothetical event it wasn't passed

the upshot of this, unfortunately, is that there's no good way to talk about it

Forgive me if this is so naive/basic that it's meaningless, but I think it could be powerful to reframe the whole taxes convo as, people wouldn't resent taxation if they perceived the value of where their taxes were going? If, when you needed programs & services, they were there for you, the Average Person, and were accessed easily and affordably.

Idk exactly how else that might look but I agree that lots of ppl are just totally phobic and shut down re all discussion about "taxes" and I think for there to be positive movement we need a new discourse.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/opinion/kamala-harris-criminal-justice.html

op ed in nytimes about harris' record as prosecutor/attorney general