Phrasing DOJ arguments in language as anachronistic and hostile as possible, using arguments as risible and specious as possible, isn't going to do well politically. Period. It's that simple.
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:14 (fifteen years ago) link
deej, this is serious strawman bullshit. No one's arguing for executive fiats.
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:15 (fifteen years ago) link
alfred you're totally missing the point here
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:16 (fifteen years ago) link
im going to ask again, did u or did u not read the article i linked to upthread
basically, what not-defending DOMA in court would have amounted to was executive fiat, yes. of course in terms of the righteous nature of the cause its 'wrong' but in terms of the most effective end result, i think there's a really good argument for pushing for legislative change instead.
& there is no way to defend DOMA in court without being anachronistic and hostile! thats what DOMA is! what else are you expecting here?
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:18 (fifteen years ago) link
deej as i said it's the cumulative effect of a bunch of individually defensible stuff that people are justifiably angry about - if this, even with its offensive and hostile wording, hadn't come after a) failure to explicitly support "gay marriage" b) rick warren invitation c) perceived turnabout on DADT - then maybe it'd have been forgiven as a necessary "part of the game". and all those things are individually defensible too. but it's adding up to an indefensible whole, and it's not being balanced by any positive pro-gay rights action, or even rhetoric, apart from that "fierce advocate" weak sauce which is just a flat-out lie.
― lex pretend, Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:25 (fifteen years ago) link
Law Dork:
Even if one argues, as I often have, that a government lawyer — from the Department of Justice to state attorneys general — must defend even those laws with which one disagrees*, such a lawyer needn’t overstate his or her case. The government lawyer defending a statute with which she disagrees needn’t add gratuitous demeaning statements into the legal brief she files.
Unlike the Obama Administration’s brief filed in the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell case turned away by the Supreme Court this week, last night’s filing in Smelt v. United States goes too far (pdf). It’s offensive, it’s dismissive, it’s demeaning and — most importantly — it’s unnecessary. Even if one accepts that DOJ should have filed a brief opposing this case (and the facts do suggest some legitimate questions about standing), the gratuitous language used throughout the filing goes much further than was necessary to make its case.
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:27 (fifteen years ago) link
deej, how tasty do the bottom of Obama's boots taste?
yah i agree the optics are totally bad (as is the content, in a vacuum) but as i said i totally agree that so far obama has a long way to go to prove to the lgbt community that he means what he says ... i still think its important to have the right context for this shit though, like this is bad in a 'treading water' way, not in a 'drowning' way
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:28 (fifteen years ago) link
xxp
hey alfredhttp://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/who-wrote-the-doma-brief.html
how does trying to enable a sarah palin presidency by not voting for obama in FL taste?
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:29 (fifteen years ago) link
"I suspect obama will drag his feet on gay issues so im going to enable a VP candidate that believes in witches!"
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:30 (fifteen years ago) link
& for the 90th time i dont see how u can say im kissing obamas ass here since im entirely agreeing that his (lack of a) stance on gay rights is totally unacceptable
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:31 (fifteen years ago) link
An election in which the GOP had no chance and the Democratic candidate had already waffled on FISA and gay marriage tastes a lot better, esp. with a side of fries.
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:32 (fifteen years ago) link
Fair enough.
(xpost)
while the more...over-dramatic anti-obama hissy fits i've read really irk me, i think what's worse is reading people dismissing them as flouncing gays - what you're seeing is people suddenly realising that all that stuff about hope and change still, once again, doesn't apply to them. and the creeping suspicion that obama simply doesn't see this issue as one of morality and civil rights.
you know, i think that "fierce advocate" line makes me more angry than any of the other stuff. it's like...no. NO. don't fucking LIE, man.
― lex pretend, Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:35 (fifteen years ago) link
im entirely agreeing that his (lack of a) stance on gay rights is totally unacceptable
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:31 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
except that you're saying that their filing in this case is okay because obama should be pushing for gay rights through the legislature, but he isn't doing that either - who cares what his "stance" is? i personally have a stance of wanting to go to the moon. what's the difference at this point?
― let free dom ring (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:39 (fifteen years ago) link
― let free dom ring (J0rdan S.), Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:39 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark
where did i say that?? im saying that their filing in this case is ok because if they'd done it any other way it would be counterproductive, and that they SHOULD be pushing for gay rights legislation. as i say in the sentence you just quoted back to me
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:43 (fifteen years ago) link
and what point when they don't push for gay rights through legislation does everyone defending them on this step up and say "this is horseshit"? in 2016?
― let free dom ring (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:46 (fifteen years ago) link
i personally am against going to the moon
― rip dom passantino 3/5/09 never forget (max), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:47 (fifteen years ago) link
^another palin enabler
― let free dom ring (J0rdan S.), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:47 (fifteen years ago) link
― let free dom ring (J0rdan S.), Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:46 PM (29 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
im saying its horseshit that they are not pushing for legislation. how about we focus on that instead of what some former bush appointee said in his asinine but ultimately pointless DOJ defense of DOMA?
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:48 (fifteen years ago) link
i dont know where u guys are getting this parody of my position here -- i was the one comparing inaction to MLK's 'letter from a birmingham jail' upthread, remember?
― autogucci cru (deej), Sunday, 14 June 2009 23:55 (fifteen years ago) link
Obama has easily done more in his first few months than any president since FDR
Statistics, please?
― Dr Morbius, Monday, 15 June 2009 02:23 (fifteen years ago) link
ok, wrong word -- I think Reagan and Carter "did" at least as much, for good or ill.
― Dr Morbius, Monday, 15 June 2009 02:25 (fifteen years ago) link
http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Netanyahu_speech_an_important_step__06142009.html
― Gabbneb in NYC (gabbneb), Monday, 15 June 2009 13:51 (fifteen years ago) link
NOTHING TO DO W/ OBAMA'S FLAWS
― Dr Morbius, Monday, 15 June 2009 14:04 (fifteen years ago) link
Dr Morbius: Anti-Peace
― Gabbneb in NYC (gabbneb), Monday, 15 June 2009 14:12 (fifteen years ago) link
Rep. Keith Ellison on Obama and the progressives: http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/8657/
― bad hijab (suzy), Tuesday, 16 June 2009 02:15 (fifteen years ago) link
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/06/16/howard-dean-obama-anti-gay-language/
― Fidel Gastro (gabbneb), Tuesday, 16 June 2009 17:22 (fifteen years ago) link
Obama to give benefits for same-sex partners of federal employees
there's some docu on don't ask don't tell on a lot of public access stations this evening, according to a feature on NPR, if anyone's interested
― the heart is a lonely hamster (schlump), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 13:06 (fifteen years ago) link
half-assed damage control imo, but at least something
― giovanni & ribsy (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 13:16 (fifteen years ago) link
It's either that, really poor timing (ie, it was already in the works and the DOJ clusterfuck beat it out the door) or some combination ("shit, let's push this out now instead of waiting until September").
― HIS VAGINA IS MAKING HIM CRAVE SALAD. (HI DERE), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 13:23 (fifteen years ago) link
honestly surprised fed employees don't have this already
― Kitchen Paper Towel (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 15:38 (fifteen years ago) link
what are barack obama's flaws? ― HIS VAGINA IS MAKING HIM CRAVE SALAD
^^^ Kinda unsettling to see that one in New Answers
― Enemy Insects (NickB), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 15:40 (fifteen years ago) link
still a valid flaw tho
― HIS VAGINA IS MAKING HIM CRAVE SALAD. (HI DERE), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 15:40 (fifteen years ago) link
really hope the right-wing blogosphere doesn't find out O has a V
― i want to marry a pizza (gbx), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 15:42 (fifteen years ago) link
ok so i'm hearing that this presidential memorandum will only extend relocation benefits, NOT health or retirement benefits -- if that's the case then this is some straight up bullshit. also, as a memorandum it will expire when he leaves office. ugh
― giovanni & ribsy (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 15:43 (fifteen years ago) link
He can swat a fly, you know...
― Mark G, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 15:47 (fifteen years ago) link
BREAKING NEWS
http://i39.tinypic.com/29djs5x.gif http://i39.tinypic.com/fbcdiu.jpg http://i39.tinypic.com/29djs5x.gif
(xpost damn!)
― StanM, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 15:48 (fifteen years ago) link
That's a great expression.
― Bud Huxtable (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 15:57 (fifteen years ago) link
o rly?
― i want to marry a pizza (gbx), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 16:01 (fifteen years ago) link
so sick of hearing about the fly-swatting
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 16:02 (fifteen years ago) link
ok so i'm hearing that this presidential memorandum will only extend relocation benefits, NOT health or retirement benefits -- if that's the case then this is some straight up bullshit.
Obama's hands are tied by, you guessed it, DOMA. From Politico: However, the Defense of Marriage Act prohibits the federal government from extending health and retirement benefits to same-sex couples, so the benefits are more likely to be marginal -- like relocation assistance.
― Kitchen Paper Towel (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 16:17 (fifteen years ago) link
fucking Clinton
lol what a pathetic sop this is
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 16:19 (fifteen years ago) link
agreed
― Kitchen Paper Towel (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 16:19 (fifteen years ago) link
like...this is seriously the best he can offer? why even bother
― lex pretend, Wednesday, 17 June 2009 16:22 (fifteen years ago) link
so that when it's time for you to donate money again people can say "he tried"
― worm? lol (J0hn D.), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 16:25 (fifteen years ago) link
eh, poor attempt at damage control.
I am really surprised at his poor political instincts here. I can understand not wanting to throw the repeal of DOMA into the current legislative agenda, but he could at least be laying the groundwork for it, both rhetorically and behind the scenes.
x-post
― Kitchen Paper Towel (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 17 June 2009 16:25 (fifteen years ago) link