Seizing back control: The ILX lol brexit is how we're all gonna die thread.

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (7441 of them)

Better dead AND red.

Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Monday, 1 July 2019 17:54 (seven years ago)

Grieve's attempt to block No-Deal via government defunding has been stopped by Bercow just not selecting it as an amendment.

Andrew Farrell, Monday, 1 July 2019 18:00 (seven years ago)

LOL Jo Swinson and Ed Davey both prepared to 'push the nuclear button'. I don't think there's much doubt that the Lib Dems are seriously going after Tory votes.

Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Monday, 1 July 2019 18:06 (seven years ago)

Sorry, Sir Ed Davey.

Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Monday, 1 July 2019 18:07 (seven years ago)

orange bookers gonna orange book

||||||||, Monday, 1 July 2019 18:09 (seven years ago)

jo swinson - she has an accent not dissimilar to that of fraser nelson

conrad, Monday, 1 July 2019 19:24 (seven years ago)

she has big bearsden energy

||||||||, Monday, 1 July 2019 19:28 (seven years ago)

https://common-wealth.co.uk/Public-common-partnerships.html

― ogmor, Monday, 1 July 2019 15:32 (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i need to read it a bit more closely. the first part is a handy look at the follies of PFIs. I'm less clear about PCPs as a solution. The point about 'value for money' being driven by negative externalities is an important one. It seems feasible on a local level, with a shared community of interest (where it seems to be working in Preston) and where there's a good possibility of making a surplus (some of the energy examples cited). In the former case, it's helping a community starved of cash. In the latter, it's a standard co-operative business model afaict.

(I should say, my preferred model would be to see more regional financial and political devolution. local politics corrupt in many places of course, but equally a government putting in funding for potholes, or deciding whether trees can be cut down or not, is a) absurd b) leads to pork barrel politics and putting more power back into local politics may have an energising effect on local democracy. The nationalising turn by Labour is the thing I favour least about currently policy.)

The other crucial thing, pointed out here, and regularly missed, is that investment in public assets should be on the asset side, rather than the liability side. That latter alone would significantly change the investment logic for public infrastructure. (I'm surprised this isn't the case tbh - it seems like basic accounting?)

The two suggestions alone would require a sympathetic government. And although we have to assume a sympathetic government for anything like what the report suggests to be feasible on any sort of scale, it seems it would require a long term single-minded purpose to effect many of its most basic requirements.

I'm not at all clear from the report how the idea can reach any sort of scale outside of that requirement for a sympathetic government, too. One of the things that occurred to me when I first read the Chakrabortty piece on Preston was that while it was a welcome and positive story, things like improved transport links between somewhere like Preston and Manchester - increasing the ability of people locally to work in the nearest, biggest city, would be where you would want local investment to go, and that this, while welcome, was not a replacement for that.

For me the key questions are

  • governance
  • the raising of capital
  • the requirement for surplus
  • the scope
On the governance side, the need to balance out competing aims makes it look like a lot of stakeholder management, with the need for a decision-making framework and a clear vision. (It's about those values held in common - a local community of shared interest, like traders, yes, wider more complex requirements like education or health, less so?).

With the recommendation that surplus money gets invested in a general PCP pot, I'm not clear what the incentives are to invest in shares in a project. If the project is for you or represents your interests, then it may make sense to invest in order to accomplish the required end (a market, a road). It seems to me that this is where Preston has been succeeding (though it should be noted that an original enabling capital investment came from a George Soros fund).

Report points out that there will be a natural desire to reinvest capital in the supply and distribution chain verticals around them, but that this needs to be balanced out against "the wider project of socialist transformation". Again, there's a sort of handwave at 'negotiation' – negotiation is hard enough when there's a single public service actor, or a PFI RFP, I dread to think what it would be like in this situation. It seems unfeasible.

the requirement to generate a surplus makes it difficult to imagine many important infra and services projects taking place under this approach. report recommends starting with projects likely to generate a surplus energy, water, housing, and transport infrastructure - in order to kickstart what looks to me a rather optimistic image of cross-funding through surplus income. (that diagram seems wild to me - and more generally in the piece things get a bit vague, and the language gets quite bad, around the most optimistic scenarios.

I just had a quick look at the 2012 PFI info, and it will surprise no one to learn that the biggest spenders were health, education, transport and the MoD - oh and a massive wodge of PFIs in Scotland. of those it seems to be that only transport and defence have the potential to generate a surplus. but i feel I must be missing a central mechanism of how this is supposed to work. Clearly health and education are by far two of the biggest consumers of public finance. I can't see how this model would have been a replacement for standard state financing in those critical areas.

Interesting to see from that same report that 'Local Government and Communities' were also fairly big on PFIs - those projects seem to me to be ideal candidates for this model.

That leads to my final point on scope, which I've mentioned before, which is that this seems to work under some conditions, but I'm not convinced about the ability for it to become a model capable of delivering essential social goods. I would like to understand more on this point:

create commons where the conditions for a commons exist, but if not introduce democratic mechanisms to produce the conditions for commoning further down the line.

What are the conditions for commons? I may have missed it (i'm quite tired), but it would be good to see them listed.

As I say, feels feasible on a local level (though even there how you define a shared commons seems to me quite fraught outside the two examples of a limited set of shared interests - traders - or a sound business model - eg energy), but beyond that, I struggle a bit.

I feel I may be being unimaginative! as i say, I'd just like to see more state and local funding on the current models, and the investment in the public realm to be seen as the creation of assets, as well as having a positive social and financial impact on society. (ie, a good health service reduces the number of days lost through illness, good social care reduces pressure on police and hospitals, good education increases GDP etc etc ad infinitum, fuck the tories etc).

Fizzles, Monday, 1 July 2019 21:47 (seven years ago)

should add that as is probably fairly obvious i’m no sort of expert in public realm financing at all. in fact said realm would probably be ruins within a decade if i was let near public finance.

Fizzles, Monday, 1 July 2019 21:56 (seven years ago)

idk id read the fizzles annual govt spending almanac tbh

damarraghcas.jpg (darraghmac), Monday, 1 July 2019 22:29 (seven years ago)

"she has an accent not dissimilar to that of fraser nelson"

this current iteration of the libdems and every cowardly, self-interested decision they've taken in the last decade, and every fucking clown of a leader they've had. Just makes me hanker for the good ol' tories tbh.

calzino, Monday, 1 July 2019 22:34 (seven years ago)

tbf she's just got a Miln-gavvy Douglas Academy head girl accent whereas Frahzoor Neheeilsoon has an accent that he seems to have constructed from various sources in some Victor Von Frankenstein science-gone-too-far fashion.

Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Monday, 1 July 2019 23:06 (seven years ago)

Laura Pidcock was quite impressive on Today just now, not quite DESTROYED nick robinson but she had the oily creep in her pocket.

calzino, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 07:49 (seven years ago)

i was listening and was as outraged/amused as her when Nick Robinson dismissed the story and tried to get onto his preferred subject

Rory end to the lowenbrow (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 07:58 (seven years ago)

yeah let's talk about the polls instead, with the proverbially 10 pts behind Labour Party behind blah blah.. never mind the important subject of the civil service being fucking tory activists.

calzino, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 08:03 (seven years ago)

almost have to admire his chutzpah

Rory end to the lowenbrow (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 08:03 (seven years ago)

wtf is wrong with these people

Brexit Party MEPs turn their backs in European Anthem at opening session of European Parliament pic.twitter.com/M1J5rdzb8e

— James Mates (@jamesmatesitv) July 2, 2019

Captain ACAB (Neil S), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 08:52 (seven years ago)

Woah, wut?

Chewshabadoo, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:11 (seven years ago)

hell yeah, that’ll show the perfidious johnny eu the error of his ways

coroner criticises butt (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:20 (seven years ago)

not psycho xenophobes at all

Rory end to the lowenbrow (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:21 (seven years ago)

Can anyone enlighten me how many times this has happened in parliaments? The only time I have heard of this happening before was the Nazi’s in the 1930s.

Chewshabadoo, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:22 (seven years ago)

this is going to help the negotiations for the deal tremendously.

StanM, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:27 (seven years ago)

this is going to help the negotiations for the deal tremendously.

StanM, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:27 (seven years ago)

twice, even

StanM, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:28 (seven years ago)

shitting my pants at the european parliament to own the damn eurocrats

coroner criticises butt (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:39 (seven years ago)

Here are Nazi party members at the Berlin Reichstag doing exactly the same thing, in exactly the same way, for exactly the same reasons. pic.twitter.com/LzzvcaKNcQ

— Glyn Arthur (@GPEArthur) July 2, 2019

Uptown VONC (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:39 (seven years ago)

At least the nazi's made good use of their time turned around by reading the daily Zeitung, it seems.

Uptown VONC (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 09:40 (seven years ago)

xps was hoping for a fizzles post! god save our inexpert forum. this is the first time I've seen something like this articulated and as a tantalising/frustrating sketch is largely pointing towards good further questions. this model recognises the importance of stakeholders, which seems to be coming up a lot lately (even in nassim taleb's new book lol) and it's good to see something more seriously long-term and significant than cranking up the dial or putting a few worker's representatives on company boards laid out. the question of how/who determines how a common association and joint enterprise are comprised would be critical (who governs the governors), and yes it seems clear it would be v obvious in some cases and not at all in others (perhaps this is part of what is meant in talking about the necessary conditions for commoning? PCPs beget further PCPs?).

part of what's so encouraging to me about this model is that it steals the tory trick of making part of the economy more insulated from central govt but instead of handing it to the private sector devolves governance locally. it can exist within/despite a tory govt and could help make the local economy more resistant to future central govt cuts. if we are serious about investment factoring in wider social impact, well-being &c. then the issue of stakeholders is crucial or you are relying on the caprices of the govt/national electorate/media. this is about addressing the undemocratic nature of the current model.

if PCPs were widespread you can see how they would be interconnected, how this would create a different economic culture and how they might help sustain each other, but it's unclear how you'd get to that point even with a labour govt pushing for it. investment is the main problem (as it is under the current model!) and I'm not sure how much can be generated locally, or how this would affect redistribution across regions. devolution without some mechanism for investing in a way that addresses these inequalities can end up with a situation like wales.

ogmor, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:16 (seven years ago)

I am barely awake and am resolved that all political matters are to be resolved by a committee of sleep-deprived ilxors

ogmor, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:19 (seven years ago)

Lib Dems at it as well:

Absolutely idiotic scenes here, genuinely embarrassing. pic.twitter.com/KawvW0gsax

— Flying_Rodent (@flying_rodent) July 2, 2019

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:24 (seven years ago)

"god save our inexpert forum."

you can praise a good fizzles post without resorting to such pompous dickery y'know!

calzino, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:26 (seven years ago)

lol we're all gonna die

coroner criticises butt (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:27 (seven years ago)

Lib Dems, the adults in the room

Rory end to the lowenbrow (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:27 (seven years ago)

"part of what's so encouraging to me about this model is that it steals the tory trick of making part of the economy more insulated from central govt but instead of handing it to the private sector devolves governance locally."

Will read this later but this is encouraging. By-passing electoralism, making the UK 'non-governable' as a task to be accomplished. This is what people who focus on Corbyn or who the next Labour leader might be, or whether Labour right or left are in charge, will never understand.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:31 (seven years ago)

they'll do anything to prop up a right wing tory government rather than a mildly centre-left labour one, so they are effectively a pro-brexit party.

calzino, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:33 (seven years ago)

the PLP is the ladder which we aspire to throw away. calz please respect my religious beliefs

ogmor, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:36 (seven years ago)

i didn't know *that* was a religion, but anyway peace on all message boards and all that ..

calzino, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:39 (seven years ago)

brexit beatle is on it:

If Johnson suspends parliament, we will have to do a lot more than a big march on a Saturday. Revolts and revolutions have happened over less. On some days, it feels like parliament is all we have left.

— John Harris (@johnharris1969) July 1, 2019

and accepting no pushback:

Ps this is no time to be joining in any noise about the supposed uselessness of liberal institutions. For all their shortcomings, the last 3 years has proved they're our only real firewall against no end of horrors https://t.co/N3uvEKPsMw

— John Harris (@johnharris1969) July 1, 2019

mark s, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:48 (seven years ago)

the last 3 years has proved they're our only real firewall against no end of horrors

<citation needed>

coroner criticises butt (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 10:52 (seven years ago)

in ACAB news

JACK’S STORY: today we want to tell you all how a 14-year-old Derbyshire boy was labelled a #DomesticExtremist because he said in class – in a lesson on the US civil rights movement – that he is an anti-fascist and how his family was then hounded by counter-terrorism police pic.twitter.com/KFeq7VAODX

— Netpol (@policemonitor) July 2, 2019

||||||||, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 11:44 (seven years ago)

the ex-crap Melody Maker hacks transition from ever so slightly miffed graun melt to domestic extremist is a text-book case of radical indoctrination.. he's a bloody anarchist now!

calzino, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 11:48 (seven years ago)

assuming the Netpol story is broadly correct than the first point of douche there is the teachers that dobbed the kid in

Rory end to the lowenbrow (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 12:17 (seven years ago)

It doesn't seem true to me. I did a quick gs on "anti-fascist schoolboy Derbyshire" and it returned stuff about Farage's school teachers being concerned that he was a professed racist and a neo-fascist back in the early 80's. No flies on them ... no shit sherlock etc...

calzino, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 12:41 (seven years ago)

I'm not 100% sure about this but didn't UKIP MEPs do something similar at the start of the last European Parliament?

Matt DC, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 13:03 (seven years ago)

yes indeed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28113979

Captain ACAB (Neil S), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 13:06 (seven years ago)

labour going in on this civil service story. they must be worried that the BXP insurgency could tarnish their anti-establishment credentials

||||||||, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 14:54 (seven years ago)

Your face when you've just had someone ask if you're lost & then you're told to leave, on your first day at work. 🤦🏾‍♂️

I know I'm visibily different. I don't have the privilege to hide my identity. I'm BLACK & my name is Magid. I don't intend to try fit in. Get used to it!
👊🏾💚 pic.twitter.com/HhWG63kE9U

— 🚀MΛG!D (@MagicMagid) July 2, 2019

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 14:54 (seven years ago)

to be fair bud you're wearing a sweary T-shirt

Rory end to the lowenbrow (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 14:55 (seven years ago)

they’re sending useful shots across the bow of whitehall’s supercilious mandarins too - “we will expect you to implement this milquetoast european social democracy, guys”

||||||||, Tuesday, 2 July 2019 14:55 (seven years ago)

All that's left for the Brexit Party to do is to burn down the European Parliament and pin it on some hapless boob.

Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Tuesday, 2 July 2019 14:56 (seven years ago)


This thread has been locked by an administrator

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.