Seizing back control: The ILX lol brexit is how we're all gonna die thread.

The whole thread (has that Ashcroft chart) is good.

Narrative is mostly about Labour bleeding Remainer support and Tories bleeding Brexiteers support. But Brexit Party is only slightly (5%) up on Ukip vote from 2014, which doesn't account for the Tories being down 14%...

— Jon Stone (@joncstone) May 27, 2019

Thing is a lot of the crowd that voted Corbyn in 2017 held their nose at the time. It's a coalition.

If Tories go hard Brexit at the next election they will have to vote Labour to have a chance of stopping this, so..

I’m unsure about the viability of the holding-their-nose crowd’s argument or why they think they’re so uniquely special - i wasn’t particularly enthused voting labour in 2015 but look at the alternatives. Voting for the least worst option is what we all have to do.

The corresponding argument, that people felt safe voting Labour knowing they couldn’t win, wasn’t borne out in reality, in fact it was the exact opposite: https://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-findings/did-people-vote-for-jeremy-corbyn-because-they-thought-he-would-lose/
(Love the cameo from Joan Ryan in there, lol)

Also:

Exclusive:

Michael Gove would allow 3 million EU nationals living in the UK at the time of the referendum British citizenship at no cost, in order to heal Brexit divisions if he becomes Prime Minister, Sky News can confirm https://t.co/UvG18BNVAG

— Tamara Cohen (@tamcohen) May 27, 2019

Remain and reform us going to be the new "we won't cut as far and as fast as the Tories".

"We won't cut as far and fast as the Tories" was a watered-down version of Tory policy, remain and reform would be the opposite of it.

Corbyn outperformed Miliband because he was offering clear blue water between Labour and Tory policies, not a slightly nicer version of their policies. "A Brexit that protects jobs..." is closer to a Miliband fudge.

It would be hasty to commit to a course too quickly, but the Tory leadership contest gives Labour an opportunity to recast its position, and to an extent that will depend on who wins.

I still don't really know what you think should be done here, just various flavours of what shouldn't.

There probably are 3m people who'd want to take the citizenship soup? I mean, I guess as an Irish person we're given almost instantaneous rights here as soon as we're paying taxes so it never seems necessary, but presumably if it was become a citizen or risk being kicked out (is this the real implication of Gove's offer?) then a lot of people would sign up, or be more desperate to do so.

Not all countries offer dual citizenship though. I know the Netherlands doesn’t.

Matt - one other thing that shouldn't be done is panic after a protest vote

Yeah not sure on that side. I did see a few people I'm vaguely acquainted with posting on social media about getting citizenship in the last few years, guess it depends on circumstances. None of them were Irish tho.

xpost

I was also on CH reading about the EU elections and a large number of the comments were about how EU (and esp Irish) citizens shouldn’t be allowed to vote here under any circumstances - never mind that this is a reciprocal right - and people should take British citizenship if they want these rights. So in three years we’ve gone from EU citizens can stay to “take their rights away unless they swear loyalty to the queen”. Cool!

Germany will stop allowing double citizenship once the UK leaves the EU.

Dunno how much the "brexit divisions" have to do with EU citizens anyway, we weren't under the illusion we were welcome before tbh.

xpost

we weren't under the illusion we were welcome before tbh

There are innumerable articles claiming the exact opposite.

The 'I thought I was in the world's most welcoming country, how could they do this to us?' piece is a genre unto itself at this point, and not just in English.

Is it really controversial to say the UK hasn't got the greatest reputation when it comes to welcoming foreigners? Anecdotal evidence, I know, but I've yet to meet anyone who thought "world's most welcoming country"...

Among the uninformed, yes. And they are legion. Not to mention it's a highly desirable destination for immigrants to Europe (in the broad sense), even post-Brexit.

Not to mention it's a highly desirable destination for immigrants to Europe (in the broad sense), even post-Brexit.

These are two separate things, tho: you don't have to think a country is welcoming to think it's worth going there. Financial considerations are much more important in many cases.

It's telling that so many Romanians are scrambling to immigrate to the UK before the door closes for good. Why is it deemed more attractive than Germany, France or the Netherlands, even now?

has anyone had any experience with labour groups like momentum or open labour? curious about how strong a network they have and how effectively they organise, as they could potentially prove decisive over the next few years & esp w/ appointing a successor. momentum at least seem busy.

There is a very noisy anti-immigration constituency in the UK but that's actually lower than in a lot of other European countries, in general more people in this country see immigration as a positive than elsewhere in Europe, certainly compared to Italy or France. Obviously not all immigrants are equal in the eyes of a lot of Brits but the same goes everywhere:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/05/the-british-are-the-most-positive-in-europe-on-the-benefits-of-immigration/

Or, you can realise that the milieu you’ll be living/working in is substantially more welcoming/multicultural/urbane than what’s broadly considered ‘average’.

The Paul Mason story grows more bonkers.

https://skwawkbox.org/2019/05/28/union-leaders-northern-mp-take-imploding-mason-to-task-for-shame-of-attack-on-lavery-and-loto-staff/

Here's what "senior Labor sources" spent until 2 am organising - hours after Labour's election collapse: union leaders, MPs, fake news sites... not analysing the causes of defeat but attacking me. When someone writes a hatchet job, always ask cui bono. Who ordered this? https://t.co/aMa8kKrYUv

— Paul Mason (@paulmasonnews) May 28, 2019

Why is it deemed more attractive than Germany, France or the Netherlands, even now?

Stronger previously established communities? Dystopian neoliberal hellscape making it easier to get a job right away and without much paperwork? Those are the two reasons I've observed most amongst the ppl I've spoken to, no idea if it applies for Romania (tho I guess the first point at least would?)

English spoken here.

^ Definitley a factor too.

Language a big factor, yes. More and more Romanians working and consequently staying/living here though.

I'm sure a lot, possibly most, would rather go to the USA but that's an ocean away and the UK will have to do.

There was no substantial Romanian community in the UK prior to the recent exodus, so that's certainly not the reason why. English can be an obstacle in some cases, which is why the first wave of Romanian EU emigrants moved to Spain and Italy. Dystopian neoliberal hellscape (perceived as a good thing by most Eastern Europeans) is closer to the truth.

Bargain basement America, except what's lower than bargain basement?

I was talking in general, not about Romanians fwiw.

(Just in case: Spanish and especially Italian are ridiculously easy to learn when your mother tongue is Romanian.)

Np Tom, I was responding to Daniel.

As far as the non-linguistic factors are concerned, that is.

Italy possibly even more hostile to Romanians than the UK as well, tbf.

The rest of the Balkans seems very focused on Germany so idk if there is a perception there's less competition for jobs in the UK.

Romanians sure have found their way into agriculture here in Holland over the last couple of years. Hostility, as far as I can perceive it, mostly still reserved for Poles :-/

It's fairly simple, really: in Romania, the UK is viewed as an extremely rich, civilized and noble country where hard work pays off and real values are upheld. It remains a fantasy for many foreigners, as baffling as that may seem to some of you.

Plenty of Romanians move to Germany as well, by the way. We even have a historical minority (the Saxons, heh) in Transylvania, of which the most famous at the moment is probably our current president, Klaus Iohannis. See also: Herta Müller.

real values of Real England

"An extremely rich, civilized and noble country where hard work pays off and real values are upheld": The ILX lol Brexit we're all gonna die thread

I wish I was kidding. This image tends to subsist even past the first encounters with reality.

everybpdy got a plan til you punch em in the mouth

- t may

Khabib Nurmagomedov begs to differ.

It's sometimes easy to forget the high regard in which the UK is still held, even in countries we've had relatively recent wars / disputes with (Argentina, Russia, etc).

It's a combination with an overestimation of British cultural life with an enduring belief in the kind of fastidious reliability and commitment to fair-play we'd probably attribute to Germans, ime. Part of the reason people are so fascinated with Brexit is that it seems so 'out of character'.

youve never had it that bad

Not the first wealthy Western nation to paint itself as a dystopia tbf.

for millions of non-wealthy people it actually is a dystopia

It's sometimes easy to forget the high regard in which the UK is still held, even in countries we've had relatively recent wars / disputes with (Argentina, Russia, etc).

look we're doing everything we can, it's not our fault that furriners aren't paying close enough attention to our attempts at self-immolation

"with an overestimation of British cultural life.."

let's face it last night of the proms has always been dogshit!

Why are poorer Brits not emigrating to other, less dystopian nations?

it's not someone else's fault morrissey was never our eurovision entry

they're full of furriners iirc xp