london restaurants

OK - i was being a bit mean-minded..... Thee article could perhaps have got to the communities element a bit faster, though i was looking at it on a phone.

I think it's fine to make that shift w/o bearing down on some overly-fetishist concept of disadvantaged communities as a resource for the cash-strapped

Despite the Suzy seal of approval, I'm not completely convinced or is my leg being pulled here?

From London Eater - 2018’s Most Egregious Dining Grievances

Jonathan Nunn, food writer and Eater London contributor:

The proliferation of automated McDonalds ordering, meaning double cheeseburgers are made fresh and the meat and cheese don’t have time to sit on the heated counter fusing together. This is legit the most serious UK wide issue that is going on in food right now.

demarionunn owns & the list is proper

The guy's social media persona is irritating in the predictable ways you get with UK left dude Twitter but there's no question he puts the legwork in and he's repping these places because they are GOOD rather than just cheap or as some kind of realness totem.

Ultimately, if you can afford to, eat where you like and that can be community cafes, oversubscribed hipster restaurants or high-end places with world-famous chefs, it's all good. But lists like the London Eater one are a necessary corrective to a London food writing scene that can feel incredibly lazy, endless lists of London's best Thai restaurants that all contain the same places (Kiln, Smoking Goat, Som Saa, Begging Bowl etc, all of which have white chefs).

It's not to say one set of restaurants is better than the other - I enjoyed Hoppers as much Everest Curry King, a Sri Lankan place in Lewisham where they are completely unembarrassed about putting the food in microwaves right in front of you, and local Sri Lankan families queue all the way to the door at peak times. I enjoyed them in completely different ways, but the likes of Time Out, the Standard etc focus almost entirely on the former group now.

There are reasons for that - slashed editorial budgets and time constraints mean that journalists are going to focus on the restaurants with the best PR and social media game, so sites like London Eater do valuable work IMO.

That list is basically the kind of restaurants I end up preferring, where people from the communities go to and that have been around for ages. They end up being cheaper than other ones...that I don't go to

What are your favourite restaurants you've eaten in recently?

"irritating in the predictable ways" = funny and good :D

overrated: leek and potato

underrated: cum https://t.co/OYRHXO0Ugg

— the mango lover (@demarionunn) April 1, 2019

some people are not into food enough to go to restaurants where you need to have a degree of confidence and the staff won't hold your hand or may not be bothered about service or have a different idea of what it is, or maybe don't particularly welcome random white people.

couple that with the fact that the big lists are going to focus on areas where rent is exorbitant and a certain type of restaurant tends to feature. also like, is it really lazy that the same places appear in lists or is it just that people like those places? it would only be lazy if the places were really bad restaurants.

personally i guess i couldn't give a shit about service generally once everything functions at a basic level, there are plenty of places i go to regularly where it's cheap and rude, but eg when i went to roti king, i got in at 5pm when it opened and at a quarter to 6 my food hadn't arrived and i had to leave to go to a lecture. the same was true of the person next to me. it was just a chaotic mess of food being given to people who shouted at the waitress loudly and frequently enough. i didn't go back. i didn't really feel like complaining either tho, that sort of restaurant feels so personal and sort of family run that i wasn't about to, even politely, try to raise issue with anything. feels like you're a guest in a more old-fashioned sense.

and ultimately it doesn't really stay in my mind, shit happens - but you constantly see raging comments on google reviews or whatever from people who get recommended to go somewhere like roti king and expect bland, steady professionalism or standardised service, maybe it's better that lists cater to the vast majority of people who use them, most likely tourists or those who wish to take photos of their food as it congeals, or people in need of a helping hand who prob will just find reasons to get angry if anything erratic happens.

i have discovered places via eater but mainly cos they have a list for every fucking possible thing you can think of.

i assume some of eater's target readership is students w/no money

i mean presumably they might as well do any and every list they can, to attract users, but their main lists tend to skew mid-price to expensive. tho there are a few places that you could eat for under a tenner on them that don't get included in that list, which seems to be aiming for some slightly indefinable concept of value/authenticity that excludes lots of places, which i don't really understand, but might explain the slightly odd intro.

I’m putting out a hard recommend for Master Wei in Cosmo Place - hand-pulled noodles and Xi’an dishes for people who enjoy places like Silk Road but can’t hoof it out to Camberwell or want someplace really good after work by Russell Square (which is half of London ILX). I went the first weekend it opened and loved it. Chang’s Noodle in New Oxford Street comes recommended to me by Marina O’Loughlin because it’s along the same Sichuan/Xi’an lines. It looks really shabby on the outside but she says to ignore that.

I’m delighted by the variety of hotpot and skewer Chinese restaurants opening within a 5-minute walk from my flat in any direction.

couple that with the fact that the big lists are going to focus on areas where rent is exorbitant and a certain type of restaurant tends to feature. also like, is it really lazy that the same places appear in lists or is it just that people like those places? it would only be lazy if the places were really bad restaurants.

Most of these restaurants are good, even great. Still, I do think it's lazy but there are mitigating factors for that which I've talked about above. I still have a copy of Time Out's 100 Best Restaurants book on my shelf from about 10 years ago and occasionally look through it even though a lot of those places are gone now. It's really apparent that the old list is a lot more diverse, both geographically and in terms of the types of restaurants, than the current list.

Obviously things are different now because food culture feels like an absolutely central part of London youth culture in a way it wasn't even 10 years ago. I get that not everyone wants to trek to Wembley for dinner (hell, I don't) but London is also a city of millions of people and increasing numbers of them live in further flung parts of it because it's more affordable, it's good they know about good, unheralded places that might be on their doorstep. Borough/Soho/Shoreditch/wherever are always going to be hubs of amazing restaurants but not everyone wants to spend all their time eating there.

and the staff won't hold your hand or may not be bothered about service or have a different idea of what it is, or maybe don't particularly welcome random white people.

I've eaten at a lot of random restaurants over the years and the worst I've encountered was a sort of bemused curiosity that we might have wanted to go in there in the first place. I've had awful, chaotic service at lots of tiny local places but also waiting staff who were very happy to talk us through the menu and make recommendations - that's a big part of why people should review them in the first place. Never been to Roti King though - that's pretty central right?

the piece is combining a quite complex argument abt price and approach and expectation -- which cannot but get political tbh -- with an actual guide to some places nunn thinks are good (lol it reminds me a bit of the kinds of lists i used to put in the wire back when we covered EVERY KIND OF MUSIC DAMMIT) (ie they didn't make much sense unless you got what i was on abt which i WASN'T GOING TO EXPLAIN! NEVER!)

i like that he routinely does get into the politics bcz you can't map london honestly w/o politics! but the complex argument ends up being extremely compressed and yes, a little under-defined wrt value and values -- it needs a much longer piece on the "digital facing page" of course but then you'd just click straight to the list in the we have made

insert world, log off

It’s right by Euston and one of the two times I went was with Mrs DC!

i went once and it was great though i did have to wait in line for about half an hour to get in which felt faintly ridiculous

the piece is combining a quite complex argument abt price and approach and expectation -- which cannot but get political tbh -- with an actual guide to some places nunn thinks are good (lol it reminds me a bit of the kinds of lists i used to put in the wire back when we covered EVERY KIND OF MUSIC DAMMIT) (ie they didn't make much sense unless you got what i was on abt which i WASN'T GOING TO EXPLAIN! NEVER!)

i like that he routinely does get into the politics bcz you can't map london honestly w/o politics! but the complex argument ends up being extremely compressed and yes, a little under-defined wrt value and values -- it needs a much longer piece on the "digital facing page" of course but then you'd just click straight to the list in the we have made

yeah, this is exactly what i was getting at! the politics of it. i guess for me he doesn't get properly into that and i would like him to, but i guess the eater editors just want their clicky list. i mean there's a lot to be said about the idea of an independent restaurant and the kind of faux-independence that is on the rise in london and already fairly well-established in new york, but yeah, would be a different piece.

xpost i was first in the queue having heard about the long waits but as i said my food never arrived :(

roti king’s popularity has justly imo skyrocketed over the last what six? years. food is still excellent. it’s got more expensive. and yes the queues are now v long and although the service has always been fine for me i get that they have some trouble processing that many people sometimes or that a service mistake has a bigger consequence.

but i kind of feel “meh market forces” about it. (tho i can understand it’s irritating if you’ve gone there for a quick bite - i would probably just avoid it for that now). food’s still good and it hasn’t done the other version of being affected by success, which is scaling to a bigger place or opening more places with the quality dropping off, which is worse imo.

What are your favourite restaurants you've eaten in recently?

My job takes me from London quite a bit so most of my recommendations would be from around the country. The thing is that piece really captures my experience of the kind of place I like where the food just ends up as almost something that could be cooked by a parent or grandparent (if you happen to grow up with family members that know how to cook). In the end they serve whoever with no fuss, often cash only.

Yesterday I was eating at an ok place in Angel with a friend which is the opposite. More expensive, nice and all but the food took a while and it was...just enough in terms of quantity. The owners clearly took care with the decor, had to be booked in advance (why I'd never go myself, just fail at that basic level)...there is a whole level of 'experience' that is coming into being just by going there, which is what my friend goes for.

"i like that he routinely does get into the politics bcz you can't map london honestly w/o politics! "

You can't talk about food honestly w/p politics either, food cultures are always embedded with histories of globalisation, colonisation, access to and scarcity of resources. I think it reflects more poorly on the bulk of food writing that takes so little account of the relationship b/w food and its contexts that this little gesture to these issues seems quite thorny and noteworthy. Its a great list though and hopefully the answer to a good many "where can you get decent X in London?" questions that I can never seem to get a good answer to (where can you get a good Maffé for instance?), and I think that any such list will draw attention to, even if unintentionally, the redrawing of the map in recent years and the end of inner-city areas as ethnically diverse enclaves. It would be weird not to draw attention to this phenomenon at least cursorily I think?

Cookery writers who write about specific culinary traditions tend to be much better at acknowledging historical forces that have influenced how e.g. particular ingredients were introduced, and while this can veer into a fetishistic exoticism, it is on the whole a lot more interesting than whatever epistemology underwrites how restaurant critics are expected to frame their writing. As a counterpoint has anybody ever read the absolutely demented ramblings of the catwalk reviewers on vogue.com/runway?

We happened to be in Ealing this weekend and took Fizzles's tip: the peirogi at Sowa are really very good indeed. Thanks Fizzles.

This part of an interesting London restaurants weekend also involving a delicious chicken shish at a very ordinary newish kebab shop in Peckham, and the excellent (and IMO very good value at £45ish) tasting menu at Perilla on Newington Green.

(which we wandered past at about 4 yesterday, on our way into the city centre to see if Sunday evening was good for turning up at Abeno without a booking - no is the answer, turned up at 6 and was told the next vacancy was at 9)

xp is the kebab place ‘sultan beirut’? working from home today and that’s on my list of places to try for lunch.

did they have the fried gurnard on at perilla? went in january and that was a highlight.

finally got to the marksman for sunday lunch this weekend. the bacon bun was as good as everyone says, as was the brown butter tart. got chicken pie to share, really tasty. fiver each for tatties and greens to go with it seemed a bit mean tho.

Sultan Beirut - yes. The shish was deffo better than the shawarma.

Gurnard: yes! With the chip-shop curry sauce. Delicious. The little crouton soaked in marinere was amazing too.

going to be lunching in Catford for the next two weeks; perhaps I shall document it with airy sociological condescension. the greasy spoon I'm currently in has just served up Set 7; what earthy thrills must await?

THESE SIMPLE FOLK CAN CERTAINLY FRY A MUSHROOM

tbh it was decent. come to catford

Where’s the best place near the South Bank to go for lunch if you are four parents and two reception-age kids? It doesn’t have to have a kids menu, and doesn’t have to be cheap as chips. We just want somewhere good to eat next time we’re in the vicinity because our Pizza Express experience was bloody awful. It started with doughballs for one child arriving 15 minutes before the other child’s, and got worse from there.

My understanding of what makes a place good for children is vague at best but https://mamuska.net/ Mamuska might be fun? Its latest iteration is in a big railway arch off that roundabout at the southern end of Westminster Bridge.

That sounds awful! You would think a good server would know better than to bring only one child’s food. There’s always Giraffe but that’s mind-numbingly bad for the adults. Wahaca, maybe?

We've been to Wahaca with a toddler and the staff are pretty tolerant. The Green Room? Never made it ourselves but it always looked inviting.

i will stan for wahaca. surprisingly good food and fun for kids. unless they have zero tolerance for spice :(

I should have said, these particular friends are anti (ie. snobbish about) chains except for (until now) Pizza Express. I don’t mind a lot of them, especially with a child in tow. Our local Franco Manca is brilliant - they always give us a table by the chef and we’ve even had a hunk of dough to play with while waiting. I would totally go to Wahaca with different friends.

In our experience it is incredibly common for the adults’ food to arrive before the children’s, even though you’d think that was basic knowledge. Maybe it’s to do with the kitchen rather than waiting staff? Dunno.

Anyway, Mamuska is a good call, I liked the one at Elephant and I can imagine pierogis being a hit with the younger generation.

If it was just us, we’d probably go to Fishcoteque!

Well, provided they can quickly bring something (I think they can if the something is bread) to distract the littles I’d recommend https://www.casadofrango.co.uk/ aka Posh Nando’s.

There’s a branch of Tonkotsu behind Tate Modern which has branches but isn’t quite a CHAIN chain yet, plus all kids like a dumpling, which they do in addition to ramen.

ok on the strength of that eater guide i checked out red camel in leytonstone and BWAH YES. from the persian end of afghanistan. father and son team. incredibly sweet, funny dudes. absolutely amazing rice and mutton dish called qabily pallow.

In this piece he is developing what was compressed in the guide: https://london.eater.com/2019/4/17/18410090/london-east-end-food-poplar-regeneration

(warning: this has a quote by Walter Benjamin ;))

An astonishing number of people are hailed by name, their order readied before they even have time to speak. It’s the unique rhythm of a place, one of those rare ones, which is propelled by a business which is in it not for the love of money, or even necessarily the love of food, but for the love of people.

Walter Besant and Walter Benjamin...

There’s something about his writing style which seems to irritates me and bring out my inner contrarian, although I’m broadly sympathetic to his views.

Franzina Trattoria on Coldharbour Lane, Brixton is excellent I think. Husband and wife team that used to run out of the nearby box park (although often like hell, and with some deeply compromised decisions behind it, this particular box park is at least dedicated to local businesses and a few have graduated to bricks and mortar in this way).

Sicilian food. Although things have got a lot better, I'm generally wary of Italian restaurants, partly because the food just isn't as good a lot of the time as even a basic Italian trattoria (which are often very good ofc), partly because of the problem of good fresh ingredients - there are no tomatoes in this country. That latter problem is even worse for Sicilian. However, they manage it well through the mixture of a small menu, largely but not entirely vegetarian, with robust flavours (smoked aubergine and mint works very well, as do the cinnamon and sugar donuts). The pasta is excellent.

It's also comparatively cheap, under ten pounds for most of the pasta dishes, and the starter 'small plates' are generous. the interior is light and pleasant with the kitchen right in the middle. Extra points for the husband wearing a tall chef's hat.

Also recently got jerk chicken at Smokey Jerky in New Cross (though apparently the lamb is the one to go for) – emphasis is on the smokers, with the homemade jerk sauce going on after. Was great.

Ah sounds perfect for my next jaunt down! I know what you mean about the nearby box park but I do highly recommend the Alpes box which I visited about a month ago - great food (the pan-fried asparagus with Parmesan cream and shavings and a squeeze of lemon was simply perfect) and top-notch friendly staff (who really seemed to enjoy their job).

thanks for he recommendation: the food stalls there can be very good, eg zoe’s ghana kitchen. it can just get a bit.. contended... on a sunny weekend. (and as a box park it’s so much better than the Boxpark company examples at Shoreditch and Croydon).

The Turkish grocers on Green Lanes used to do by far the best fresh tomatoes I’ve come across but it’s literally years since I last went to Harringay.

Finally got round to putting together an interactive map of our ridiculous London world eating project. Some of these places have closed or are about to but there's a hell of a lot to recommend:

there are no tomatoes in this country

truth bomb

weirdly, it is possible to grow your own quite delicious tomatoes here, particularly if you have a greenhouse, so i'm kind of flummoxed that no one has offered Posh Tomatoes anywhere that i'm aware of

Matt i am extremely looking forward to your foodmap wormhole

Turkish grocery tomatoes are always good, as are the tomatoes at Notting Hill and Islington farmer’s markets (they are seasonal and grown in polytunnels).

I’m intrigued by this foodmap project. I’ve got a mental map of Melbourne restaurants I should lay down - I’m pretty sure you can find a representative restaurant of every province in China here.

I don’t know many of the restaurants in Matt’s list, but 2 that I do know I don’t rate at all: Baltic and Rules. Rules may be a joke inclusion, I guess

Yeah in all honesty I can't particularly recommend Rules unless it's to go to the bar upstairs. Thought Baltic was pretty good though.