Michael Jackson is "evil"

As Mike said you don't know people's triggers but also I think you would, frankly, get an angry reaction from some punters and who wants to deal with that for the sake of playing these tracks?

Absolutely, I should have mentioned that too - I've been visualising a good mood turning sour, and who wants that indeed?

Sic, first, even if you take that quote as definitive proof of anything (which uh), it comes from Richard Cole, not from a band member. The story in Hammer of the Gods, which is what I was commenting on, was that the members of the band were responsible and the acts it describes go further than what Cole describes himself doing (and would have probably resulted in injury). Second, Carmine Appice has also claimed that he was the one responsible. Afaik, no women have ever come forward to say they were involved.

I've said before on ilx that I do consider what the band did to Ellen Sander horrifying and defensible, and much worse than any of these groupie stories. (Obv doesn't affect my appreciation of the music.)

that's probably why I said Cole

Why did they have a fish in the hotel room?

*indefensible xps

OK, but, then, even Cole was debunking something more than just the type of marine creature involved.

relative to the story in HOTG

Why did they have a fish in the hotel room?

― Trϵϵship, Friday, March 8, 2019 1:05 PM (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You could fish from your balcony.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Edgewater

I guess it's not really an ironclad debunking as much as that a story that always sounded like bs has multiple competing versions with afaik no one still defending the original version and no evidence in its favour.

the grossest thing about that was how giddy it made Frank Zappa, who immediately wrote a terrible song about it

Sure, but he did that all the time about everything.

Ha, I went to look it up and realized that I used to own the album it's on but, weirdly, had no clear memory of it.

Lucky you.

I don’t get why it’s even considered a good story and not just gross and weird.

I mean... Bad and Dangerous were both worldwide #1, multiplatinum albums and the premiere of the "Black and White" video was the most-viewed ever at that time. The amount of hype it generated still stands out in my mind.

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Thursday, March 7, 2019 6:42 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i also remember when the "Scream" video debuted and it was this enormous event, followed of course by You Are Not Alone. "Scream" was his comeback (and a pushback against those who made the initial allegations against him).

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/08/entertainment/simpsons-michael-jackson/index.html
i recorded this on cassette tape off of the television and listened to it like 8 zillion times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLIUlaJsGwU

seeing that was covered upthread now. everything is terrible.

My wife's name is Lisa and has had a massive hate-on for MJ for years because she has believed that he abused thiae kids. Ever since she got on FB, I have gotten up early on her birthday and pre-emptively scanned her account to eliminate well-meaning posts of that clip.

those

ok can we derail this thread into talking about invasion of privacy and access to the social media accounts of significant others? (｡￫∀￩｡)

but not really tho

This is a mod we are talking about too. He is probably doing this to all of our facebook accounts.

oh shit, let me clarify: by messaging the people and asking them to take down the posts!

phew, lol

I mean, privacy issues notwithstanding, someone could get hurt feelings if they thought my SO was ignoring or deleting their birthday posts off her wall. Everybody involved has been real understanding.

I don’t get why it’s even considered a good story and not just gross and weird.

by whom

i also remember when the "Scream" video debuted and it was this enormous event, followed of course by You Are Not Alone. "Scream" was his comeback (and a pushback against those who made the initial allegations against him).

― omar little,

Comeback from what? His last American hit, "Will You Be There," surpassed expectations and rode the top ten for a while, thanks to Free Willy.

i assume omar doesn't mean commercial comeback but coming back from the first allegations

oh! Makes sense

my recollection was that the legal issues all started up in earnest after Dangerous and Will You Be There? But I could be wrong. Maybe "comeback" should be in "scare quotes", since he was coming back from the accusations of sexual abuse and the single was a pretty clear attempt to confront them angrily.

brad otm -- i think Dangerous was a huge album but the allegations obviously put his career to a halt for a minute before HIStory (which did sell 20 million worldwide, wtf, but it could be argued it was maybe the most New Jersey of all New Jerseys, of which MJ arguably had three perhaps?)

coming down from the extreme Thriller heights required a three-step New Jersey process perhaps.

i recall HIStory being a HUGE deal (and i bought it!) and Dangerous maybe not performing at the level people were hoping for.

MJ's worldwide sales figures go something like:

Thriller - 66 million
Bad - 35 million
Dangerous - 32 million
HIStory - 20 million

I assume HIStory's sales figures were boosted a bit by the double-CD = 2 unit sales?

well not to mention the 2nd disc was a greatest hits comp which gave a whole new generation reason to buy it. whose decision was that, anyway - MJ or the record company?

there was also a controversy regarding the scream video because mj beats up a car. america has changed quite a bit since then.

by whom

Zappa, I think, for one. Cole and Appice both also sound like they were bragging.

Btw, was just teaching a 7yo (not the one mentioned above) an exercise involving the 1st 3 notes of a minor scale and he commented that it sounded like the beginning of "Billie Jean".

The beating up a car was from one of the Bad singles, right, not Scream?

Black or White

XP The long version of "Black or White, I think? It was definitely part of the video premiere after the Simpsons (remember that?).

"Scream" is MJ and Janet on a spaceship.

Zappa, I think, for one. Cole and Appice both also sound like they were bragging.

This is a total of one outside observer

in 2009, Vanity Fair published an index of detailed reported pieces that Maureen Orth had written on Jackson's grooming/molestation cases in 1994, 1995, 2003, 2004 and 2005: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2009/06/michael-jackson-is-gone-but-the-sad-facts-remain

Unrelated to the sex abuse, but his behaviour over the Beatles catalogue purchase should have put paid to any "oh he's just a waif-like innocent man-child" bullshit in and of itself. Kind of an indication of how he really was behind the mask (pun(s) intended).

https://www.biography.com/news/michael-jackson-paul-mccartney-beatles-music-catalog

the faxes and the tape on the plane were the most disturbing parts of this for me

Even though the details of the abuse are absolutely horrifying, that's the only time we see/hear the way Jackson actually spoke to these boys (rather than them reporting what he said)

it's just so palpably wrong

I didn't see the doc - merely here to post this pretty good reaction piece:

https://newrepublic.com/article/153270/michael-jackson-its-different

in 2009, Vanity Fair published an index of detailed reported pieces that Maureen Orth had written on Jackson's grooming/molestation cases in 1994, 1995, 2003, 2004 and 2005: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2009/06/michael-jackson-is-gone-but-the-sad-facts-remain

― steven, soda jerk (sic), Monday, March 11, 2019 9:00 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thanks for the link -- just finished reading the first of these. chilling stuff.

i think there may have been a time when i would have found this anecdote funny, but it made me physically recoil just now:

One Hollywood screenwriter remembers that immediately after his baby was born in a Santa Monica hospital a release form was thrust at him. "What's this?" he asked. "It's from Michael Jackson," said the nurse. She explained that Jackson frequented the hospital to stare into the eyes of newborns. "He feels then that he can really see their souls."

that is some weird shit right there

Jimmy Saville had free access to hospitals (and morgues) for which he did fundraising, for three decades.

64 reported cases in one hospital alone.

(A 12-year-old girl) remembered being approached by a white-haired porter, wearing a gold medallion and a white coat, as she walked to the television room one evening after her surgery.

The man, who she did not recognise at the time because her family did not watch television, escorted her into the room and when they were alone he pounced, raping his young victim and walking off as if nothing had happened.

When she told a nurse about the incident she says she was told not to say anything or the staff would get into trouble. She later wrote a note explaining what had happened on a page torn out of a Bible, adding her father’s name and address.

She left the note in a red postbox on the ward in the hope that someone would contact her family, but nobody ever did. Twenty years later she says she wrote to Savile’s secretary, Janet Cope, explaining what had happened but she never got any response.

Cardinal Pell, an hour ago, got three years and 8 months without parole. That's nearly as long as the Vatican kept protecting him from having to return to Australia to give evidence! No word yet as to whether he'll stop being in charge of the budget for the entire Catholic church planet-wide. (He was removed from being one of the Pope's eight advisors 10 weeks ago, after his conviction, but is still able to use worshippers' tithes to pay for his lawyers.)

HIStory has tracks i've never heard of; Little Susie, Tabloid Junkie, Money, Smile, 2 Bad (featuring Shaquille O Neal).. anyone ever heard any of this? Also who the heck was buying HIStory *for the hits*?? 40-odd million already people must have already had them! The album consists of hits from the preceding 4 albums only. It's crackers!