Michael Jackson is "evil"

why is the Page/Maddox story more disturbing than the Bill Wyman/Mandy Smith story?

It isn't. I wasn't aware of the latter until I read your post.

That story is still a jaw dropper. How the fuck did he get away with it?

It was 1983, a time when none of us were even born yet…

it's insane. pretty sure they met when she had just turned 13, they started dating in 1983.

also later her mom married Wyman's son (she was 46, he was 30 i think?)

Someone could make the observation that Bill Wyman probably didn't suddenly find 13 year old girls attractive all of a sudden when he turned 47, if they felt like getting sued.

suddenly and all of sudden in the same sentence, apologies

also later her mom married Wyman's son (she was 46, he was 30 i think?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgpsGmGyG0Q

Mandy Smith was born in July 1970, that's half a year after the release of Sticky Fingers, fucking hell.

Hey, remember when Jerry Lee Lewis's fourth and fifth wives just...died?

Move over, Kelsey Grammer (based on the top photo in that JLL story).

Jerry Lee Lewis also accidentally (?) killed his bass player!

Jerry Lee Lewis also accidentally (?) killed his bass player!

According to the link, the guy lived (and sued).

also later her mom married Wyman's son (she was 46, he was 30 i think?)

what the fuck

"If Bill and Mandy had remained married, Stephen would have been his father’s father-in-law and his own grandpa."

brothers and sisters i have none
but my sons grandmother is boning my son

This week, I suppose I might as well remove them altogether.

Mike, do you mean that you think the recent American documentary will have affected the perceptions of your local audience, or that the internet discussion has now brought you around to believing the accusations, or something else?

autobiographies in which the authors openly admit to banging high school girls. Nikki Sixx and Anthony Keidis, off the top of my head

Sixx came out yesterday, in press for the Netflix adaptation of Crue autobiog The Dirt, to say that one anecdote he tells in there about comically arranging Tommy Lee's swap-in-the-dark rape of a groupie (who was then violently raped by a stranger on her way home, to Sixx's relief) didn't actually happen and idk maybe he exagerrated because he was on heroin and erm actually the author of The Dirt made up loads of stuff, nothing to do with me. (Neil Strauss was contacted for comment, but is contractually not allowed to.)

People definitely thought the Wyman/Smith thing unpleasant at the time. A dirty old man I think Steve Jones called him, no wait that someone else.

Yes, it's not like those were different times, everyone accepted it.

Mike, do you mean that you think the recent American documentary will have affected the perceptions of your local audience, or that the internet discussion has now brought you around to believing the accusations, or something else?

It's on UK Tv tonight and tomorrow (it was a co-production with channel 4) and half an hour ago I heard two middle-aged men on the bus discussing the allegations and wondering whether they had the stomach to watch the documentary. Also, regardless of how you feel personally, I'd think it's best not to play them in public for the time being.

and maybe not ever again, depending on what happens.

UK Tv tonight and tomorrow

ah, ta

i think one problem with talking about this stuff in regard to artists of the 60s and 70s is that it can be hard to find reliable reporting on a lot of it. like i assume that led zeppelin did lots of terrible things even besides the awful story already mentioned here, but i don't know how accurate or fair any of the books on them are supposed to be. or the bowie thing, iirc the only info we have on that is that lori maddox mentioned it in an interview.

I mean this is the Mail obv. so I get your point but I'm pretty sure no-one who knows/knew Bowie has ever denied any of it.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6684325/Two-women-reveal-flings-David-Bowie-aged-15.html

The difference these days is the possibility of people notifying each other instantly of their shockhorror and publicly stating their cancelling of a career and that they will no more forever pay for their entertainment content (while continuing to pay only delivery systems). I don't think people are more or less bothered -- I think less change is actually happening than it appears. I heard Man in the Mirror on the canned supermarket pa today.

I almost bought this cool Dennis Wilson shirt, but then I remembered he married his cousin's teenage daughter and impregnated her just to spite him.

https://www.instagram.com/kyledunnigan1/p/BurnNLHjlnZ

hm no thanks

Watched the first half of the documentary tonight. One thing that struck me was how the whole Bad era is precisely what 8-year-old boys think is cool, or what they thought was cool in the late 80s anyway, And I was one at the time, I went to the cinema to see Moonwalker and thought it was the greatest thing ever made, now it seems like kind of driftnet grooming.

The ‘Jew me, sue me’ thing doesn’t get mentioned much nowadays

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/jew-me-sue-me-everybody-do-me-we-are-a-long-way-from-thriller-giles-smith-on-the-new-michael-jackson-1586653.html?amp

seem to recall he argued that he was unaware that "jew" in that context had negative connotations

the "kick me/kike me/don't you black or white me" follow up lyric was the one that kinda scuttled that approach

seem to recall he argued that he was unaware that "jew" in that context had negative connotations

people gave him a pass on things like this because people genuinely believed he was some kind of naïf. i think that was true of a lot of stuff he did.

michael jackson was a horrible person, people. even if he hadn't raped a bunch of kids, which he did.

All hail Conrad the Beastslayer! #LeavingNeverland pic.twitter.com/8gKr7WRPJh

— Autobiography out NOW (@DaftLimmy) March 6, 2019

Mike, do you mean that you think the recent American documentary will have affected the perceptions of your local audience, or that the internet discussion has now brought you around to believing the accusations, or something else?

As jed says above, Part 1 of Leaving Neverland aired on Channel 4 in the UK last night. Part 2 airs tonight (and I'm DJ-ing again tomorrow night). So the issue is at its peak in the UK right now.

Also, regardless of how you feel personally, I'd think it's best not to play them in public for the time being.

I agree. The music I play in public on Friday nights is almost wholly joyful in nature (I barely even play a sad lyric, no Tears On The Dance Floor here), and I'd rather choose records that don't stir up thoughts of child abuse. Not playing records with MJ vocals, of any era, doesn't equate to pronouncing on his guilt - it's more about removing triggers. You don't know people's stories. Choosing to listen to MJ vocals in private is a different matter.

So it is a perception thing - your dancers will have disbelieved the accusers over the last quarter century, but you expected that transmission of these specific claims would change that. Is this because the climate of believing survivors has shifted in the last couple of years, or it’s been long enough since Jackson’s death that the defensiveness of nostalgia has faded, or?

(I’m not remonstrating or setting you up for a sneering! just genuinely curious about the shift in attitude.)

Or the documentary is pretty damning and broadcast on national television, would be my guess.

Previous accounts would not have been restricted to local television or kept out of newspapers, I’d expect. (I know the Bashir doco refrained from specifically claiming that Jackson was molesting the children that shared his bed.)

Right, and this one doesn't.

Also of course you're right that context is a factor - pre-Saville, there was a narrative that this couldn't really be happening because someone would have spoken up (and if someone spoke up, that they're less believable because no-one else spoke up, etc). That's really not the case now, I think.

True but this is a UK thing only, maybe Cosby or Weinstein has had a similar effect in the US now, but guess paedophiles are a different category of baddie?

I suppose that up to now, it's been possible for many people (myself included) to compartmentalise, but not any more. That's to do with the documentary, which makes its case with heightened visibility and more unsparing force than before, and also the rapidly shifting climate into which it has emerged.

Right, and this one doesn't.

I don't know if the Jordan Chandler accusations / settlement / investigators corroborating the drawings of Jackson's penile vitiligo weren't reported on national news programmes - the matter was never sub judice, even if Santa Barbara had jurisdiction over the BBC - but Genome has this ten-years-later BBC doco airing 12 times on BBC3 and once on BBC1. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(ie the year after Bashir)

Did nobody watch this then?

for what it's worth literally a month ago I had a conversation about the R. Kelly documentary in which I'd said something along the lines of "it didn't hurt Michael Jackson's reputation permanently" and their response was "oh, that's not the same, it wasn't proven that it happened and so on and so forth." this was before the documentary was out, but the timing was strange

this post from some british journo is going around which made me think twice for a second and then i got my head on straight and am back in the fuck mj camp
https://www.facebook.com/CharlesThomsonJournalist/posts/10156642832831998

fwiw, I'd love to go to a mike t-diva dance party.

re: that dude's FB post -- i dunno, it seems plausible to me that MJ did it and that his victims might not have told consistent stories over the years. like, "these guys have changed their stories!" is a good lawyer's defense but in the real world ppl forget stuff and don't remember dates or get details wrong, and that's especially true when you're talking about things that happened when you were a kid.

When you’re talking about extremely confusing and traumatising things that happened when you’re a kid, at a time when you have carefully been removed from normal life including regular markers of the passage of time

jed otm btw

I watched and I believe those boys/now men/still boys. I'll miss the music, I'll miss "I can't help it", but I'm canceling it either indefinitely or forever.