"oh you don't get me I'm the end of the union": lol brexit is how we're all gonna die

Gonna need a longer knife.

I kind of agree with Cal re the awfulness of the people’s vote campaigners but I would never actually vote Leave; Blair, Adonis et al are only out there so much because of the original result. If the ref had gone Remain, who would Andrew Adonis be to most of us except the inspiration for Julius Nicholson?

I knew then that there would be tons of anti-Irish sentiment coming out in the press in addition to the overt racism and xenophobia already directed at non-EU immigrants and other Europeans. It was very difficult to go through the rest of the year knowing that people on the street could have voted so they wouldn’t have to see or look at anyone foreign - and regardless of what anyone well-meaning says, I am foreign. When people feign concern about too many immigrants to my face, I always ask them about this and they either say “oh you’re not foreign really!” or “oh I didn’t mean you!” But we’re all that immigrant stealing up jobs and resources to someone else in the country, aren’t we?

I am even more worried whenever I see about a racist incident or rhetoric in the mainstream because I want my other half to be safe, and I feel sick inside thinking that this is something that I even have to think about, that anyone should think about.

Tl;dr I would never vote leave again, because it has legitimised a lot of vile bigotry that should never have been allowed to fester, and the country is worse off for it.

I feel like - and this is not to belittle the horrible shit people are going thru, and I recognise I'll never be exposed to - that the initial ref and the last two years has thrown all that stuff (further than before) out of Pandora's Box and ref 2 will not put it back in again and may make it worse. With the obvious exception of people whose status in the UK may be directly affected by Leave/Remain, obv

That’s exactly how I feel. If this is what happens after a 52% Leave vote, what happens after 60%? 70%?

Or even a 48%!

(my own ideal plan would be a three-way vote, but it also requires voters seeing something non-FTFP and not screeching then throwing a chair through a window. I do accept that this is a little utopian)

FPTP!

or 48% leave 52% remain on a turnout of <60% (which is entirely feasible)... immediate calls for best two out of three neverendum territory

Yeah, that's what I mean.

"failure to follow procedures" is my preferred system

my feelings haven't really changed since I voted remain to help weaken the enervating, unrepresentative putrescence that is our parliament and the chauvinists that it serves

perhaps they shouldn't do any more referendi in the UK for now. At least not until we have liquidated our landed gentry/royal family/gutter press and lost the delusional empire complex/avalonian sceptred isle of whiteness fantasies.

the initial ref and the last two years has thrown all that stuff (further than before) out of Pandora's Box and ref 2 will not put it back in again and may make it worse

I do agree with this, but I don't see any other options that you can't say the same about

I am worried though at how much the goalposts have been moved already; Leave still has a v effective propaganda machine, and if at least a vocal minority of real people (and an internet army of maybe-real-people) are already convinced that No Deal is ~actually good and definitely what at least 96% of leavers knowingly voted for~ despite all the quotes and leaflets pre-ref mentioning easy deals and considerable upsides and single markets and continuous trade areas etc, that's not looking good for a sensible debate any time soon - plus politicians and the media emboldened by 3 years of absolutely 0 accountability for anything

guess you don't want to take back control then, cool cool

tory party as a whole has shifted horribly rightwards since 2016 leaving labour to occupy the sensible middle ground on many issues... but for some reason, you never hear this story in the press

Well I don't think it's cynical or depressive to say that the UK' politics - and fuck the UK, I get not-England wanting out - has a fair way to go in the direction of worse before even the conditions for getting better, ideologically, culturally, might arrive

Probably the person I've seen made the most profoundly, cavernously miserable by Brexit is my friend's uncle, who was born here and has lived here all his live and was the child of mid-20th century Polish immigrants. He definitely took the referendum result - and I can't blame him here - as a country telling people like him and his family to fuck off.

I know immigration wasn't the only driver of the Leave vote, but I think a lot of people who aren't immigrants or children of immigrants underestimate the extent to which, for a lot of people, the referendum result cuts right across their sense of selfhood. As a sign of country saying "inviting people like you in was a mistake, creating the conditions that allowed you to live here, or to be born the person you are in the first place, was a mistake". And while we tend to spend most of our time talking about the economic or political fallout (both of which will be dire), or mocking buffoons like Andrew Adonis, this is still a profoundly emotional issue for millions of people in this country who probably feel a little less at home here than they once did.

(And yeah obviously it goes without saying the EU has its own abysmal treatment of refugees to reckon with as well, it's not an innocent wronged party here)

Thanks for that, Matt DC.

My folks are non-British EU citizens who've lived in the UK 50 years+. And, yeah. I hadn't spoken with them much about it until the holidays just gone, although of course I knew they felt horribly disappointed and betrayed.

Not to mention the practical and legal issues EU27 nationals living in the UK have to negotiate.

I was of the view that you have to "respect the result" and a 2nd referendum isn't viable but the way I feel about that has definitely changed.

I'm in this camp and because of my nature I'm sort of studiously going around making sure we've lined up all our paperwork and that we have a path to citizenship etc. My wife on the other hand is like "if they want to kick us out, then fuck them". God knows what we'd actually do if it came to that though.

I saw that British drivers in the EU may have to exchange their UK drivers licences for licences in the EU country in which they live in order to drive in Europe after a no-deal Brexit, like starting the day after Brexit. I haven't seen whether that would apply to British drivers only in Europe on holiday, and how such people would be legally distinguished from British European residents. What a mess.

i enjoyed that post Matt.

im a negative bastard so i always felt keenly aware of people's xenophobia growing up (helps that I'm an pale, green eyed person with a scottish accent - so not who racist cabbies and such are expecting to be the issue of a brown skinned refuge - and have been treated to countless xenophobic, just between us whites, confidences over the years), so the result hasn't really changed my thoughts in that way. but as Noel mentions the stressful practical and legal complications for EU nationals is such a huge ramification. would personally prefer remain by hook or crook for the sake of those people.

I'm frankly kind of surprised you don't have to get a Spanish driver's license if you actually live in Spain?? I mean, EU schmee-u, they drive on entirely the other side of the road for one thing.

No if you're just visiting it's fine. Otherwise no one would be able to ever rent a car on holiday anywhere.

I dunno about Europeans. As an American I had one year from the start of our visa to exchange for a French license, which I wish I'd done but I didn't know then that we would be staying.

Matt articulated stuff that I'm admittedly eliding. I've said before that the main motivator for me voting Remain in the end was thinking about East European friends a d neighbours and not wanting to send the "fuck off" signal. The economics is largely arguable in my opinion.

I've been lolling at Brits resident in France complaining about the couple hundred euro cost of getting a carte de séjour post-brexit. like, for the rest of us it costs that much, why should you, after leaving the EU, have it any different? [hint: you won't]

I saw that British drivers in the EU may have to exchange their UK drivers licences for licences in the EU country in which they live in order to drive in Europe after a no-deal Brexit, like starting the day after Brexit. I haven't seen whether that would apply to British drivers only in Europe on holiday, and how such people would be legally distinguished from British European residents. What a mess.

― L'assie (Euler), Friday, February 15, 2019 12:48 PM (fifty-six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

presumably the same way most states in the US handle british visitors, i.e. you can drive on your UK license if you're not a US resident. If you live here (definition of this varies by state, but in most states it's "'reside' for longer than X months" rather than a bright line related to your immigration status) you need to get a local license by taking the test. there is no enforcement of this by the police in my experience, but your auto insurance is invalid if you don't follow these rules, and any doubt is obviously going to be resolved in the insurance company's favor.

yes, it's a mess, but not in any practical way (compared to all the other messes created by brexit).

p.s. the NYS driving test is a joke.

I'm hearing that the French driving test is not a joke, and I have to pay $$$ to take 20 hrs of lessons in order to be able to take the dumb test. I only want a license to be able to drive in the countryside a couple times a year, I'm never gonna buy a car again obviously.

btw this thread's helped me decide that I should collect as many passports as I can & it looks like I'm eligible for the south american country where my dad was born & raised so thanks brexit for something

I think France's culture of steady, sensible driving needs to be maintained tbf

loool

highway tailgating is actually obligatory in france afaict

I mean I drove in the Chicagoland area for some years, France isn't significantly worse

I want to get a licence so I can rent a car and hunt long pig in britain this summer

really? there is a kind of aggressive lawlessness on the highway in France that doesn't begin to approach a place like Italy but which ime is fairly rare in the US. ym however, m indeed v

nv has iirc been to donegal u ppl got no stories to scare him

donegal is the only time I've ever driven on the left side of the road! wheee-oo it was like a video game

it wasnt you

everyone in Donegal drives like its a video game

:D :/

I know a little of Donegal and France and tbh French driving is scarier cos there's a lot more of them on the road

Altho I've only sat in the boot of the car going up the side of a mountain in Donnie

not the first person to be transported in Donegal in the boot of a car

those mountains in Tralee were amazing. I'd happily become an RA sleeper agent if they financed me a trip back there.

hiyooooo jim

I hope you didn't call it "Donnie" at any point when you were there

Loooooooooool Jim

Xp I do not ever but I'm tired and drunk and need of abbreviation

tírs

Always refer to the gaeltacht as gaelts tho

yeah? we always call them "summer students"

Best joke in Ulysses is on those lines

Anyhoo I saw two drivers stop in The middle of the roundabout round the Arc de Triomphe an exchange numbers in the middle of the road

Paris driving is another world. So’s Marseille. But out in the countryside or even on the autoroutes it’s not so bad.