"oh you don't get me I'm the end of the union": lol brexit is how we're all gonna die

I don't think I can stand any more of his wall-to-wall media onslaught on Jacob Rees-Mogg being an apologist for concentration camps... er, hold on.

well any healthy relationship should continuously be evolving you know xp

im not sure ive any idea what my ukilxors actually feel about brexit, its just struck me

only what they think about the tory/lab approaches to the machinations around it

i take it all but xyz are against

He's not for it either. Right?

afaict he doesnt take direct positions but 'afaict' includes my own impatience for reading very long posts about uk politics or why we should do things because of what some dead guy said once

the fault is certainly mine, like

is xyzzzz leave ?

- I voted remain
- 7/10 was a resonant message for me (probably closer to 6/10)
- I don’t want a second referendum (exc to the extent that it would help LAB win a GE)
- I am not “pro” brexit, ppl voted the way they voted and there’s been no material change in circs in the interim to necessitate asking again + a second ref if not done properly is a lot more risky than ppl let on

my assumption is that position applies to quite a lot of ppl who post itt

tbf JRM is amongst the top 3 most watched videos on the bbc website

Most watched

1 Huge ice ball stuck on eagle
2 Is this the world's fastest seven-year-old?
3 Rees-Mogg comments on concentration camps

not an above the line front page story tho

im not sure ive any idea what my ukilxors actually feel about brexit, its just struck me

Dyed in the wool pro-European. For all it’s flaws, since Maastricht we’ve had better laws and better government coming from Brussels than we’ve had from London. Being part of a federal whole with the ECJ and ECHR is a lot better than the unicameral centralised shit show that is Westminster. Being part of a bigger whole make sure us stronger and moderates our worst aspects. It’s a long way from perfect but far better than the alternative.

, ppl voted the way they voted and there’s been no material change in circs in the interim to necessitate asking again

this is the message im getting from a lot itt and its fair enough taken as a position in isolation

but it does imo v much set brexit apart from p much anything else important that ukilxors have an opinion on, the acceptance of the legitimacy of a majority opinion that is clearly wrong and shit (and the ref itself wasnt even set out in a way that ever *could* give this type of legitimacy to any ensuing result)

i find the meta justification of brexit interesting is i spose my point, and it does make me wonder whats different about membership of the eu vs yknow structural racism and grinding the poor to animal feed and other v popular opinions amongst the electorate etc

xp tks ed see id have assumed this was the threadview but perhaps weve long sinced moved into x-d chess mode and its all tactics and countermoves now

i have some sympathy for criticism of the eu from the left/organised-labour perspective but it seems far better to be in it and try to organise across national borders than it does to quit it entirely, not least because the brexit process is being managed by the most feckless and incompetent bunch of arseholes we've had in government for quite a while

parallel to that, as ed says, is that membership of the eu has in large part kept the worst parts of the uk in check when it comes to laws and recognising human rights

we're def better in than out imo

Yeah, I'm pretty close to Ed - it doesn't hurt that pretty much every time that I've heard a politician (mostly UK but some IE) say "Well Brussels made us do it", I've been on Brussels' side. (xp as bg says)

(also also it's of course different for the Irish, EU money paid for a lot of good roads and it's the first solid international step we've took as a nation among equals and that's not counting the North)

a lot more risky than ppl let on

Compared to what? has to be the question, though.

"they fixed the roads" elevated to the highest possible level there!

voted remain, but would vote leave now. I used to have a "don't give the far right a stabbed-in-the-back story" type 2ndRef position. but genuinely don't give a fuck atm, and have a jaded, angry, completely incoherent Fuck the EU + fuck Alistair Campbell, Adonis, Lammy et al sort of nihilistic fuck em' all and watch the world burn outlook - which probably isn't good, but where I'm honestly at.

It's a shorthand - but then the roads aren't always shortcuts.

sometimes i feel that way calz and sometimes i swing towards the opposite, that it's a moronic project championed by the very worst elements, accomplishes nothing, billions flushed down the toilet, was based on xenophobia, lies and probably illegal behaviour and those things are true regardless of who supports a second referendum or whatever

xp I'm the opposite, don't really care how they stop Brexit, if it damages "democracy" I couldn't give a toss really, not like it's not already a sham. rather side with "centrists" than fascists, feudalists and disaster capitalists

damaging democracy is not just some nebulous term tho - if ‘stopping’ brexit is not done in a way which has majority consent it will flip our politics on its head for a generation

as it is it’s going to poison the discourse for years to come - and that’s with it being (presumably) enacted

I mean I know we’re a nation of supine cunts but that could change

I didn' t vote in last ref because I didn't care enough either way. I mean I would rather the UK leave I guess but suspected the hassle/ money and time spent doing it wouldn't be worth it. I'm neither a " oh the UK is so fucked now we're all going to starve" or a " Britain will be great again" type. It almost feels as if it has nothing to do with me in that I doubt my life will be better or worse in 20 years time whether UK is in or out of the EU.

our politics has been flipped on its head for a generation anyway tbf - maybe only a generation at best

They fixed the roads is important to Scotland, too (or parts of it). A lot of rural road improvements were funded by the ERDF (incl the 30+ miles single track road to get to my mum's village). ERDF also supported a lot of Scottish start-ups through co-investment, for example.

voted Remain, against 2nd Ref for all the reasons stated above including the vindictive class/tribal politics ones, have come to the conclusion that the UK's relationship to the EU has always been so dysfunctional and unwilling that it would've been better for both sides if some variant of a Norway-esque deal had always been in place

I may be a bit more twitchy about this than the average person re medicine shortages. but the majority of people in this country are cunts and they can all go fuck themselves imo

re: 2nd ref meta-reaction-

its not as if everything imperfect about each eventuality wont be labours fault anyway

why not try for the better actual outcome

i voted remain, no longer sure what I think, its too confusing. I read pieces articulating completely contradictory takes about how we will be affected and end up not really having a clue

my antipathy towards second referendum is a mixture of feeling the campaign was flying in the face of common sense (on eg parliamentary numbers) and the feeling it would just return another Leave vote, dashed with a mixture of fatalism, complete distrust of almost all media, and my own basic inability to grasp what its actually going to really mean

I can remember around the time of the '08 crash and the beginnings of the current austerity, when LAs were just starting to tighten their belts rather than the current "looking into the jaws of death" scenario. I worked on a multi-million pound contract on a huge stream of Sheffield social housing refurbishment, that was totally EU funded. Some of these properties had been left to rot since the late 60's. Seriously, I couldn't understand how they hadn't burnt to the ground. The cable inside some of them was so old and electrically unsafe, it was actually oxidising and turning green. Anyway, I'll give the EU that one!

That's part of the problem isn't it? UK government (including local government) taking credit for things that were EU-funded? So the EU gets a lot of the blame for things that go wrong and none of the credit for anything good?

My current state on this whole clusterfuck is that nearly everyone who opens their mouth is wrong in different ways except the people calling Cameron a fuckwit.

My not so controversial take is that Brexit is grave abuse and those responsible (Cameron and onwards) should be hanged prosecuted. Hijacking a nation's generation of discourse and politics with Brexit, taking all attention away from much more pressing issues like poverty and racism, is nothing short of criminal. Whatever the question was or is, leaving the EU is not the answer. The UK will be worse off after whatever leave from the EU, and said poverty and racism will have only increased.

The chant is "fuck Theresa May" https://t.co/GbJHzHV82h

— Great Editor (@simonchilds13) February 15, 2019

well at least there is some modicum of hope for the future :)

the neoliberal democrats close to launching new CDU. "corbyn defeated us", "centrist dads united", write in your own option here

Chris Leslie takes a step closer towards leaving Labour for the new 'CDU' centrist party that by all accounts is days away from being set up
"For me idea that the Labour party is not together and arguing against this disaster is for me entirely heartbreaking."

— steve hawkes (@steve_hawkes) February 14, 2019

le sigh

best scenario
- long extension (ie kick into long grass extension and grind everyone down until we remain by default)

or... the backstop is plan A not B:
https://i.imgur.com/UwE8chS.jpg
it’s less worse (-2.8%) for the economy than the may deal (-3.9%)

also missed this. um why has he not been fired ?

China cancels trade talks with UK in protest over defense secretary's speech: The Sun https://t.co/rJOvhPVp70 pic.twitter.com/xQ7vdJNwrD

— Reuters Top News (@Reuters) February 14, 2019

I can't believe the BBC missed that important story. £15 bn trade deal goes down the shitter because of idiotic bigmouth.

I thought hardmanning the PRC was government policy

it wasn't Gideon's policy, hence that useless nuclear power station that will cost 20 times more than gas storage and provide a fraction of the power. And McD chucking Mao's book at him during PMQ!

You're talking about the golden age, man. Let it go

Tory source says number of abstentions now gives No10 a useful list of the real hardcore Eurosceptics who will not blink. “It’s longer than we thought,” source says.

— Jessica Elgot (@jessicaelgot) February 14, 2019

she's not going to be able to convert 60 labour MPs to her deal

Gonna need a longer knife.

I kind of agree with Cal re the awfulness of the people’s vote campaigners but I would never actually vote Leave; Blair, Adonis et al are only out there so much because of the original result. If the ref had gone Remain, who would Andrew Adonis be to most of us except the inspiration for Julius Nicholson?

I knew then that there would be tons of anti-Irish sentiment coming out in the press in addition to the overt racism and xenophobia already directed at non-EU immigrants and other Europeans. It was very difficult to go through the rest of the year knowing that people on the street could have voted so they wouldn’t have to see or look at anyone foreign - and regardless of what anyone well-meaning says, I am foreign. When people feign concern about too many immigrants to my face, I always ask them about this and they either say “oh you’re not foreign really!” or “oh I didn’t mean you!” But we’re all that immigrant stealing up jobs and resources to someone else in the country, aren’t we?

I am even more worried whenever I see about a racist incident or rhetoric in the mainstream because I want my other half to be safe, and I feel sick inside thinking that this is something that I even have to think about, that anyone should think about.

Tl;dr I would never vote leave again, because it has legitimised a lot of vile bigotry that should never have been allowed to fester, and the country is worse off for it.

I feel like - and this is not to belittle the horrible shit people are going thru, and I recognise I'll never be exposed to - that the initial ref and the last two years has thrown all that stuff (further than before) out of Pandora's Box and ref 2 will not put it back in again and may make it worse. With the obvious exception of people whose status in the UK may be directly affected by Leave/Remain, obv

That’s exactly how I feel. If this is what happens after a 52% Leave vote, what happens after 60%? 70%?

Or even a 48%!

(my own ideal plan would be a three-way vote, but it also requires voters seeing something non-FTFP and not screeching then throwing a chair through a window. I do accept that this is a little utopian)

FPTP!

or 48% leave 52% remain on a turnout of <60% (which is entirely feasible)... immediate calls for best two out of three neverendum territory

Yeah, that's what I mean.

"failure to follow procedures" is my preferred system

my feelings haven't really changed since I voted remain to help weaken the enervating, unrepresentative putrescence that is our parliament and the chauvinists that it serves