US Politics February 2019: This is one of the great losers of all time.

If the House democrats move forward on the assumption that the country will stand behind them, no matter how long the government is shut down and turmoil increases, they will very soon find that a majority of the country is clearly AGAINST that principled stand, because the middle had moved back and only people like you stood fast.

even if this may be true (i don't think that's what would or will happen, but it is possible), people of conscience should go blood-curdling screaming into that good night. you know the Henry Clay quote about a good compromise leaving both sides dissatisfied? well, if the compromise is $1.6 billion for a symbol of racism that would be visible from space, then how about people of good conscience stand up and be dissatisfied?? why just quietly accept it as the only possible outcome?? ESPECIALLY when this is a fight that they can actually win outright, with zero dollars for the wall?

The only risk the Dems run is the appearance that they are unwilling to compromise at all, which is not much of a risk

the thing is, they have been exceeeeeeeeeedingly willing to compromise up to this point! they've been willing to support billions of dollars for cameras, sensors, drones, tech-centric solutions, etc, that would actually be far more cost-effective against illegal crossings than a wall that pretty much every expert in the entire world agrees is fucking STUPID AND CHILDLIKE in addition to INCREDIBLY RACIST.

ok, stepping away from the thread now. i respect you all and i know you're acting in a way that you think is reasonable. but i just can't face this world, this world that we live in, right now, in a sober state. i will be back to make fart jokes on a different thread later in the day, i'm sure

****BLOODCURDLING SCREAM****

nothing but respect for my mailman.

how about people of good conscience stand up and be dissatisfied??

great idea. we need our John Browns. but please reserve the bulk of your dissatisfaction for the fucking stupid racist in the White House and all his willing enablers, while grumbling under your breath that those who oppose his racist objectives were not able to force him to abandon the issue and chose instead to sign on to a less than optimal result.

i don't expect any better out of trump and his supporters. i know what they are and what they stand for at this point. i do expect better out of everyone else. democrats are not forced to compromise on this. you know the FDR quote to Randolph - "make me do it"? here's an idea: let's MAKE THEM DO IT

FDR had an overwhelmingly democratic Congress during almost his entire 16 years in the presidency.

*muffled bloodcurdling scream on the other side of the mountain*

Karl, go play Dead Cells (but check my reply to your post in that thread first).

I know what you mean. But I feel compelled to point out that for all his power FDR made only feeble efforts to oppose racism on any level but symbolism, because a very large bloc of his Congressional backing was from the Solid South and blacks were almost absent from seats of political power. He not only compromised on racism, he practically gave in without a fight, because of how the power was arrayed.

You can deplore Trump and the Republicans with my hearty endorsement, but they have the veto and the votes to win an all-out showdown and must be reckoned with. You see this as a no-brain winning issue, but the past several decades of elections give a very mixed picture on that.

*muffled bloodcurdling scream on the other side of the mountain*

ZS OTM

xposts
earlier this morning i had a great build and was *this* close to defeating Conjunctivius before completely blowing it and dying. then a few minutes later i learned that the new democratic position is to compromise with racism, and then i learned that most people here think that's a reasonable position and that it's the best that democrats can do, which is just sad. so i'm going to play "drink whisky at 2pm" instead. at least that's something i can count on

but they have the veto and the votes to win an all-out showdown and must be reckoned with.

i disagree with this premise. didn't this scenario play out during the entire month of january? who won that all-out showdown?

Karl otm

that it's the best that democrats can do

as of today, under present circumstances. tomorrow they can look for further opportunities to push the rock a bit further uphill. hoos would tell you to go out and find something that feels like you are contributing to the solution. if you're just waiting for politicians to have their come-to-Jesus moment, that moment will come much faster if you put some energy into speeding up the process.

FDR had an overwhelmingly democratic Congress during almost his entire 16 years in the presidency.

― A is for (Aimless)

ENTIRELY Democratic Congress until his death, but he lost some control after more Southern Dems elected in 1938.

Karl, I love you, but like I do with Treesh, I advise you to step away. You've been posting for hours. It's a Saturday. Go play ball or something.

as of today, under present circumstances.

why? what do you think will happen if feb 15 - the deadline to pass a budget before the government shuts down again - comes and the democratic position is "we will not support any funding for a wall in the budget"? what do you think trump and the republicans will do?

because i cherish bipartisanship, i support a compromise offering $1 for the wall. let him declare victory on that

if millions of government employees went without wages for 35 days so democrats could haggle over whether they’d agree to spend 5 billion or 1.5 billion on a wall, that seems not great

xps. it depends. McConnell is smart enough to immediately put a stake in the ground at that $1.6 billion figure and say, "we compromised by this much, but the Democrats prefer to shut down the government again". what Trump would do is anyone's guess, because he will take at least three different positions in the first day and then watch FOX News to see which one to keep.

if millions of government employees went without wages for 35 days so democrats could haggle over whether they’d agree to spend 5 billion or 1.5 billion on a wall, that seems not great

― k3vin k., Saturday, February 9, 2019 3:26 PM

yeah uh I was going to mention this point! While we're debating whether Dems are caving, we face putting federal workers in food lines again. Yesterday NPR ran a report about how poorly the firm subcontracted by the government to issue paychecks has fucked up retroactive pay. I totally get a low level national park employee saying, "You know what? Give him a billion. I want normality restored."

correct. then, as he faces the television screens displaying his inner circle of advisors - hannity, ann coulter, fox & friends - he will hear their voices commanding him to build the wall. then, he'll either:

a) shut down the government again. democrats stand their ground. the january shutdown repeats itself. americans are exhausted. it is clearly trump's fault. he is the biggest advocate for the wall. no one talked about the wall until he came along. the wall is the issue that is preventing the budget from passing. the majority of americans don't want the wall. we just went through this a month ago. the democratic position then was not "the wall is too expensive", it was "the wall is immoral." amazingly, in the month of february, that's still true. eventually trump relents. again. somewhere in there he tries to declare a national emergency and all of that drama plays out. democrats are remembered for standing up to trump and agreeing to ZERO dollars for a racist wall, and with every year that passes it becomes more and more clear that they were on the right side of history.

b) trump gets mad at the world and gives in. he goes golfing. he declares a national emergency and all of that drama plays out. democrats are remembered for standing up to trump and agreeing to ZERO dollars for a racist wall, and with every year that passes it becomes more and more clear that they were on the right side of history.

or you know, they could just compromise now and be remembered as the party that compromised with racism.

xpost

Yeah I’m with KM on this one. Give him nothing. It’s a losing issue for him and the dumb wall is pretty much the only thing that’s hurt him politically.

it is clearly trump's fault.

clear things have a way of being muddied when filtered through a dozen days of spin cycle and media blarg. the dysfunction and pain will be very clear, but the game of blame-shifting is a tug-of-war. if trump decided to say "I was prepared to sign the bill with the $1.6 billion, much as I hated it" then odds are the mushy middle would see the democrats as the intransigent party.

perhaps, but imo in the history of government shutdowns, the republicans are almost always seen, correctly, as the party to blame.

i do know one thing, though - if enough democrats agree to this $1.6 billion wall compromise to pass the bill, then that's the end. they lost. and as much as the seasoned political veterans of ilx seem to think otherwise, the republicans will be back next year with a demand for more money for the wall. and what will democrats say then?

completely otm along with Doctor Casino's posts on this subject back in January

They'd say "no", then wait to see what the other side does.

they'd say no? how would they say no? how would they respond when republicans (rightfully, for once) point out that they supported spending on the bill in feb 2019?

on the wall, that is

and ironically, the only way, in that situation, that democrats could say "no" to more border wall spending in 2020 is if their base pushed them to refuse to spend the money. which is what should be happening RIGHT NOW, when you (and others) think it's ok to compromise on it!

This is not rocket science. They could say $1.6 billion was the full amount they were prepared to spend and that they would have preferred to spend zero, but had to compromise to keep the government functioning.

leave the political calculations and the compromises to the politicians. that's their job. it's not the job of citizens to guess at what the compromise will be and preemptively accept it. it's our job to think about what is actually RIGHT and push our leaders to do it

Karl, tell it to Congress. We know your position. They don't. My own rep is a blue dog democrat useless piece of crap on this stuff and I intend to back anyone left of him who tries to primary him in 2020. He knows it, too. I told him.

when democratic politicians look around them right now, testing the waters on a potential compromise, they should be aware that the people that voted for them strongly oppose the wall. it doesn't help when they look around and their supporters are like "well, i guess this is the best we could do, yeah it's ok, go get 'em next year"

that's their job.

right. it is their job. they are doing it. now you do yours.

ok. part of my job is convincing people on the left not to be ok with compromising with racism.

This is not rocket science. They could say $1.6 billion was the full amount they were prepared to spend and that they would have preferred to spend zero, but had to compromise to keep the government functioning.

let me drop some rocket science-level political tactics on you - then the republicans would threaten another government shutdown, again, unless they get their $1.6 billion, again.

anyway, i'm going to do everyone a favor and make like a tree and walk my dog. if i see any left-leaning politicians out there i'll be sure to update them on what i said in this thread

then the republicans would threaten another government shutdown, again, unless they get their $1.6 billion, again.

to which the democrats would say, "well, it's your funeral" and they'd be right.

you are positing that this is a all-or-nothing situation and once they spend dollar one they are somehow morally obligated to capitulate forever. that isn't how it works. but you are otm about it being the job of voters to push them to do what is right and their job to figure out how to ride all the cross-currents that come with the position.

i'll be sure to update them on what i said in this thread

they have phones

https://i.imgur.com/y0NyMmK.jpg

Very nice, except that that arrow points to the right.

McConnell is smart enough to immediately put a stake in the ground at that $1.6 billion figure

Trump rejected $1.6 billion in December. Why offer it again?

heat check

Trump rejected $1.6 billion in December. Why offer it again?

― The Very Fugly Caterpillar (sic),

If he refuses (again), he and the GOP look even worse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPmTp9up26w

not sure how i’m ending up with km but he is right and i’m thinking this is where dems should aggressively try to flip the table on him and say you get 0 for a wall, you will formalize protctions for dreamers somehow, and you will authorize corrective compensation for those workers affected by the shutdown, with the cost coming from some bullshit he’s trying to expand. I guess im insane but i’d try to make him eat shit.

The Dems should just be very specific and loud about all the things they *do* want, so that when Trump demands money for a wall the public knows exactly what he is turning down, including many programs and plans (inc. security options, sure) that people like. Then it won't be them turning down Trump, it will be Trump turning down all the things they are offering.

The pitiful, transparent defensiveness on display again. Also, the schedule story's been out there for close to a week, and this was the best he could come up with?

The media was able to get my work schedule, something very easy to do, but it should have been reported as a positive, not negative. When the term Executive Time is used, I am generally working, not relaxing. In fact, I probably work more hours than almost any past President.....

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 10, 2019