US Politics February 2019: This is one of the great losers of all time.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/The_Power_of_Postive_Thinking.jpg/440px-The_Power_of_Postive_Thinking.jpg

WASHINGTON (AP) — Congressional bargainers are working toward a border security deal amid indications that the White House is preparing to accept a bipartisan agreement that would give President Donald Trump a fraction of the money he’s demanded for his proposed southern border wall.

Participants said they expect money for physical barriers to end up well below the $5.7 billion that Trump has sought to begin construction of the wall, which has attained iconic significance for him and his conservative supporters. Underscoring the clout he’s lost during a battle that’s dominated the opening weeks of divided government, the amount seems sure to fall much closer to $1.6 billion, the participants said, a figure that was in a bipartisan Senate bill last year.

“That’s what we’re working toward,” said Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard, D-Calif., one bargainer.

...Coupled with a widespread expectation that the agreement would not use the term “wall,” the pact would represent a significant retreat for Trump, for whom “Build the wall!” has been a battle cry since his presidential campaign.

Democrats seemed to draw a firm line on spending.

“Throughout the talks, Democrats have insisted that a border security compromise not be overly reliant on physical barriers,” said Evan Hollander, spokesman for Democrats who control the House Appropriations Committee. “We will not agree to $2 billion in funding for barriers.”

...The aide also said the agreement need not contain the term “wall,” a word that Trump has lately alternated between embracing and abandoning.

ZERO MONEY FOR THE GODDAMN WALL "PHYSICAL BARRIER"

democrats won't agree to $2 billion for a wall. but they will agree to $1.6 billion for "physical barriers". isn't this the exact number that fuck schumer floated a month ago? ZERO DOLLARS. ZERO.

1.6 B is really jack shit in terms of actually doing anything

1.6 B to take down all that razor wire.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/QEHZijrFO6WfKwguha1vhrIhQoA=/1484x0/arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/NUAEXDBKHQI6TEDOTVK3MRI6WQ.jpg

Holding the House gives the dems enough power to make Trump retreat a considerable distance, but not enough to force through non-negotiable demands. Believing he could simply force the issue was Trump's big mistake; Pelosi knows enough not to make the same error. When you can't get the full victory, you look for the symbolic victory and accept you'll only get part of what you want. The war against Trumpism won't be won in one battle.

When you can't get the full victory, you look for the symbolic victory and accept you'll only get part of what you want.

this is what normal presidents, even bad ones, have done. They understand politics that much.

1.6 B is really jack shit in terms of actually doing anything

that's true. but give them 1.6 billion this year and they'll ask for (and will get) 2 billion next year, too. it's a symbol of racism. that's why republicans want it. that's why democrats should completely oppose it. if the opposition asks for $6 billion to construct a giant confederate flag in space, you don't compromise by giving them $1.6 billion to build a "large permanent national symbol of southern heritage in the cosmos", you give them ZERO DOLLARS

what makes you think they'll get $2 billion next year?

if there's a bipartisan agreement to spend $1.6 billion on a wall, why not?

If you plan to make this symbolic fight the opening salvo of a fight to the death with racism, with no compromise until total victory, then look at US history and prepare to lose.

at that point, you've ceded the whole "this is totally racist and shouldn't be constructed at all" point, which is arguably important, and instead moved the debate to the amount of dollars that should be spent on it

they JUST had this battle. the 35-day shutdown. the majority of the country was clearly AGAINST the wall. this is fucking ridiculous, you guys. standing against this is not a commitment to never compromise until racism is eradicated - that is a ridiculous extrapolation.

Part of the Dems' calculation is to get Trump back to their December bargaining posture before he threw his tantrum, thus showing what an idiot he was all along. In fact, isn't the latest proposal less than the December? I'm on the road, can't look.

Don’t text and drive

Racism eradicated? That's like me saying we must eradicate homophobia. Fight it? Hells yeah. In a series of small victories.

of course. but $1.6 billion is no kind of "small victory". that is a step TOWARD racism, not a step away from it.

you don't reward the dumb fuck who proposed the wall by giving him only part of what he wants.

wtf, i feel like i must be misunderstanding everyone, this is insane

3.6 B is really jack shit in terms of actually doing anything

*bloodcurdling scream*

No, Karl, you're right. But giving the racist some symbolism and money that does nothing, while taking away some his power and handing it to the very minorities he hates, that is not a bad deal. If that's the deal they make. And that's a big if.

putting aside the idea that it's ok to support a racist idea if it's not ultimately going to be effective - which i totally disagree with - how does this hand power to people of color?

The idea is barriers is like whatever—up to others if this makes sense as border security. “The Wall” is a monument to racism, so no money for “barriers” now. Karl otm.

The context of Trump’s despicable campaign and presidency changes everything.

the majority of the country was clearly AGAINST the wall... i must be misunderstanding everyone, this is insane

The problem here is that the opposition to the wall among that majority is not as uniformly grounded in opposition to racism or rooted in as strong as basis of emotion as yours, Karl. If the House democrats move forward on the assumption that the country will stand behind them, no matter how long the government is shut down and turmoil increases, they will very soon find that a majority of the country is clearly AGAINST that principled stand, because the middle had moved back and only people like you stood fast.

I strongly believe that is the ugly reality we all are working within. And yes, it is insane. You may have noticed there's a lot of that going around right now.

the democrats are the ones with the upper hand here. they just waited out a 35 day shutdown that was obviously trump's fault and they stood their ground. the JUST fought this battle and won. several hundred news cycles ago, also known as January 4, 2019 - THIRTY-FIVE DAYS AGO - Pelosi said "The fact is, a wall is an immorality."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtPBUHYMMF4

they JUST fought this battle. if trump wants to shut down the government again on the 15th, he can do it. and he'll lose again. it's so fucking obvious that even REPUBLICANS are getting uncomfortable with the idea of shutting down the government again. why compromise now, after clearly gaining the upper hand? would republicans EVER do such a thing on a position they care about, if they clearly had the upper hand? NO, of course not. democrats shouldn't stand their ground on this just to win political points and crush the opposition. they should stand their ground on it because it's the right thing to do, and it just so happens that in the process they will win political points and crush the opposition

(Karl looks at his cards and pushes all his chips on the table.)

I wish it were that simple to crush the opposition.

Who is to say Trump would even sign anything with less than what he asked for? The only risk the Dems run is the appearance that they are unwilling to compromise at all, which is not much of a risk, because in the House it only matters when they're up for reelection again in a couple of years, and at the rate we're going by the time that happens it will be old news a million times over.

If the House democrats move forward on the assumption that the country will stand behind them, no matter how long the government is shut down and turmoil increases, they will very soon find that a majority of the country is clearly AGAINST that principled stand, because the middle had moved back and only people like you stood fast.

even if this may be true (i don't think that's what would or will happen, but it is possible), people of conscience should go blood-curdling screaming into that good night. you know the Henry Clay quote about a good compromise leaving both sides dissatisfied? well, if the compromise is $1.6 billion for a symbol of racism that would be visible from space, then how about people of good conscience stand up and be dissatisfied?? why just quietly accept it as the only possible outcome?? ESPECIALLY when this is a fight that they can actually win outright, with zero dollars for the wall?

The only risk the Dems run is the appearance that they are unwilling to compromise at all, which is not much of a risk

the thing is, they have been exceeeeeeeeeedingly willing to compromise up to this point! they've been willing to support billions of dollars for cameras, sensors, drones, tech-centric solutions, etc, that would actually be far more cost-effective against illegal crossings than a wall that pretty much every expert in the entire world agrees is fucking STUPID AND CHILDLIKE in addition to INCREDIBLY RACIST.

ok, stepping away from the thread now. i respect you all and i know you're acting in a way that you think is reasonable. but i just can't face this world, this world that we live in, right now, in a sober state. i will be back to make fart jokes on a different thread later in the day, i'm sure

****BLOODCURDLING SCREAM****

nothing but respect for my mailman.

how about people of good conscience stand up and be dissatisfied??

great idea. we need our John Browns. but please reserve the bulk of your dissatisfaction for the fucking stupid racist in the White House and all his willing enablers, while grumbling under your breath that those who oppose his racist objectives were not able to force him to abandon the issue and chose instead to sign on to a less than optimal result.

i don't expect any better out of trump and his supporters. i know what they are and what they stand for at this point. i do expect better out of everyone else. democrats are not forced to compromise on this. you know the FDR quote to Randolph - "make me do it"? here's an idea: let's MAKE THEM DO IT

FDR had an overwhelmingly democratic Congress during almost his entire 16 years in the presidency.

*muffled bloodcurdling scream on the other side of the mountain*

Karl, go play Dead Cells (but check my reply to your post in that thread first).

I know what you mean. But I feel compelled to point out that for all his power FDR made only feeble efforts to oppose racism on any level but symbolism, because a very large bloc of his Congressional backing was from the Solid South and blacks were almost absent from seats of political power. He not only compromised on racism, he practically gave in without a fight, because of how the power was arrayed.

You can deplore Trump and the Republicans with my hearty endorsement, but they have the veto and the votes to win an all-out showdown and must be reckoned with. You see this as a no-brain winning issue, but the past several decades of elections give a very mixed picture on that.

*muffled bloodcurdling scream on the other side of the mountain*

ZS OTM

xposts
earlier this morning i had a great build and was *this* close to defeating Conjunctivius before completely blowing it and dying. then a few minutes later i learned that the new democratic position is to compromise with racism, and then i learned that most people here think that's a reasonable position and that it's the best that democrats can do, which is just sad. so i'm going to play "drink whisky at 2pm" instead. at least that's something i can count on

but they have the veto and the votes to win an all-out showdown and must be reckoned with.

i disagree with this premise. didn't this scenario play out during the entire month of january? who won that all-out showdown?

Karl otm

that it's the best that democrats can do

as of today, under present circumstances. tomorrow they can look for further opportunities to push the rock a bit further uphill. hoos would tell you to go out and find something that feels like you are contributing to the solution. if you're just waiting for politicians to have their come-to-Jesus moment, that moment will come much faster if you put some energy into speeding up the process.

FDR had an overwhelmingly democratic Congress during almost his entire 16 years in the presidency.

― A is for (Aimless)

ENTIRELY Democratic Congress until his death, but he lost some control after more Southern Dems elected in 1938.

Karl, I love you, but like I do with Treesh, I advise you to step away. You've been posting for hours. It's a Saturday. Go play ball or something.

as of today, under present circumstances.

why? what do you think will happen if feb 15 - the deadline to pass a budget before the government shuts down again - comes and the democratic position is "we will not support any funding for a wall in the budget"? what do you think trump and the republicans will do?

because i cherish bipartisanship, i support a compromise offering $1 for the wall. let him declare victory on that

if millions of government employees went without wages for 35 days so democrats could haggle over whether they’d agree to spend 5 billion or 1.5 billion on a wall, that seems not great

xps. it depends. McConnell is smart enough to immediately put a stake in the ground at that $1.6 billion figure and say, "we compromised by this much, but the Democrats prefer to shut down the government again". what Trump would do is anyone's guess, because he will take at least three different positions in the first day and then watch FOX News to see which one to keep.