"oh you don't get me I'm the end of the union": lol brexit is how we're all gonna die

my wife has left me for a prominent corbyn critic
aaronovitch?
no, she's gone quite bald

Camaraderie - Good luck to your 'wife' and I hope she can come up with better than 'I watched this doc five times get Trump in there'.

I didn't think this thread was just for Brexit, its a digression that intersects with the way a potential future UK government might act in the foreign arena.

i also wish good luck to cameraderies wife who definitely has gone to venezuela

my wife's taken to playing a plastic horn, about 65 centimetres (2 ft) long, which produces a loud monotone note, typically around B 3
vuvuzela?
yes

my wife plays with an italian bob marley tribute act

venice wailer?

im sorry what

is she a venice...wailer. you know...like the town in ita

oh deary me no no thats awful no this conversation is over thank you good day

Corbyn said the right thing on Russia/the Skripals, he just offered a detailed response too late. Obviously his critics are never going to make their arguments in good faith, which is why you need to delineate and define your argument quickly. The longer you take before doing so, the more time it gives your opponents to do it for you.

Meanwhile this story appeared yesterday and didn't draw much comment, but it's important:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/04/brexit-could-put-17-million-people-around-globe-into-extreme-poverty-study

Under the Everything But Arms (EBA) agreement, 49 least-developed countries can export to the European Union tariff-free. With an impending Brexit, these vulnerable states will no longer have access to the UK market through EBA.

If a “hard Brexit” – the return to World Trade Organisation’s rules of trade – was to take place, the authors found Cambodia would be affected the most of all least-developed countries. It has the highest dependence on the UK market with 7.7% of its exports going to the UK.

traidcraft are closing their retail arm bc the costs of importing have become too high even before brexit

:(

xp

from ogmor's post:

3. you can offer your own framing

I think you're talking about something slightly different - the ability to put your interpretation on an event or thing - but this reminded me of some media training I had a few years ago and they kept on banging on about ABC:
1. Acknowledge the question - 'I'm pleased you asked me that because it's an important topic....'
2. Bridge - 'And it's because a load of people are concerned with that topic that I need to talk about my topic, that I want to talk about'
3. Communicate - 'So, the great thing about my topic is that it's great.'

Because we're know this happens all the time - it's just how it is - i think it's quite easy to forget how insidious it is - all interviewers know it's happening, all interviewees will have been trained to deliver it - so everyone just goes along with it and 'answer the question' or repeating the question 50 times is just seen as part of the 'game'. With a script politician like Theresa May it's her entire MO and is very transparent. You will get people say that not doing this would be refreshing but breaching it as a protocol is fraught with risk - you run the risk of not knowing the answer, or not having important information to hand, or getting figures wrong - very easy to have people shouting 'gaffe'at you or to be seen as naive.

an otherwise likeable politician with genius-level recall would be some sort of cheat code

In Caracas women outnumber men by ten to one.

i for one support the installation of john gordon sinclair as venezuela's president for life

remember when they did a sequel to that film and nobody saw it

i wonder if it had a caracas reference too

electoral bourgieloo

Wonder if London buses actually still get that cheap 'Zuelan oil

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6377867.stm

it's probably mainly from that zany bunch of lads the Sauds these days? Crazy guys.

look we give them missiles to blow up school buses, they give us oil, that's how the free market works

remember when they did a sequel to that film and nobody saw it

― imago, Tuesday, February 5, 2019 5:43 AM (fifty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I saw it and wish I hadn't.

further to our collective surprise yesterday that the windrush disaster had somehow been resolved:

Sajid Javid, the home secretary, was accused of “pandering to a far-right racism” by Labour’s David Lammy after he revealed three more people wrongly deported in the Windrush scandal have now died. As the Press Association reports, in an urgent question in the Commons, Javid said after further review 18 people were wrongly sent back to the Caribbean, and he had written to 15 of them to apologise. After Javid said the remaining three were now deceased, Lammy called it “nothing less than a national scandal”. He told Javid:

Every single one of these cases is a shocking indictment of your government’s pandering to a far-right racism, sham immigration targets and the dog-whistle of the right-wing press.

but he voted for the war, so he doesn't have a point

(sorry, couldn't resist)

yes let's litigate that again

it is interesting just how racist and petty this government's deportation policy is. who exactly wants any of this?

racists

re: fizzles post about framing and argument

I have some sympathy for this insidious ABC practice. the difficulty/impossibility of learning how ppl really make up their minds abt politics combined with the gap between what ppl say and do (& mb ppl themselves don't really know why they think what they do) has left a lot of space in which the ideal of the reasoned argument, rational enquiry via debate in the marketplace of ideas etc. has thrived as an exemplar of how politics should be. but I think the role and efficacy of argument tends to be hugely overstated. if you speak to ppl who change ppls minds for a living, or look at intellectual history, or look at anything else in which shifts in thinking and behaviour occur, argument & facts are often not decisive factors. they are most effective within narrow, clearly defined parameters, but as soon as there is controversy or uncertainty about underlying premises and values they start to become less useful.

I think most ppl have an instinctive sense that the "debate me so I can make you look as bad as possible" crowd are fundamentally not otm, and can recognise instances where debates are managed or performed to someone's advantage, or are flooded with Legitimate Concerns so that they become totally dysfunctional, but you can still see a widespread belief/yearning that if only the light of logic were shone brightly enough all the idiots and self-serving bad eggs in politics would be DESTROYED and a new kind, rational and witty era of enlightenment would dawn

I was asking my uncle what he thought about Lammy the other night, as someone who used to live in his ward is a raving old-school lefty, former Communist, gay activist, Irish Industrial schools survivor.. etc.... He called him a standard conservative reactionary git in sheeps clothing, or words to that effect and cited his blaming the lack of severe corporal punishment in schools as a factor in the '12 riots as something that marks him out as a complete twat.

There's a decent interview with him about it here: corporal punishment must have slipped his mind at the time:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/aug/14/david-lammy-tottenham-mark-duggan

..and your point is ?

In fact the schools aspect of it appears to have slipped his mind every time he's mentioned it.

You can actually dislike Labour politicians without being pro-institutionalized racist police violence, y'know?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lammy-lack-of-corporal-punishment-caused-riots-9gh2bdk07t7

shit. cancelled

Ah don't mind me, I'm in a mood, and caping for David Lammy's not the best use of my time I'm aware - though that point I was making is that there's a line between "parents should be able to smack kids" and "teachers should be able to smack kids", and Lammy's not on the same side of that line as your uncle thinks he is.

There's an article here where he says that it's not the cause of the riots, but he does think it's important blah blah - to be clear he's wrong here, but he's not a caner.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/jan/29/labour-mp-backs-smacking-children

ah i see the distinction you were making there now. My uncle used to be a supply maths teacher in the 70's/80's in lots of very deprived sink schools in Tottenham/wider London area and is quite quick to jump on discipline stans, and read it/heard it right at the time.

*might not have*

his approach to classroom discipline was a bit unorthodox, if someone lit up a cig - just carry on. Maybe slightly too far to the other end of the spectrum - but he is an Artane survivor.

I probably need to find a better use of my time than taking potshots at Lammy tbf. it's all imagos fault!

I regularly see Lammy out and talking to locals here in Tottenham, and he's v visibly tackling immigration issues, hostile environment, windrush, brexit, etc. I'm glad he's my MP, tbh, and I daresay there are bigger villains in the H of P but as ever ymmv.

lol:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/05/karl-marx-london-grave-vandalised-suspected-hammer-attack-highgate-cemetery

That'll show 'em!

Hah, I was in the Haringey Irish Cultural and Community Centre last week - I might've seen your uncle in the pictures on the walls, calzino!

I wouldn't be surprised if he was, he's a bit of an activist ledge in his own modest way - Even the Graun did did a two page piece on him about 10 years back!

I've been reading back this thread v slowly for the last hour and just want to acknowledge my agreement with ogmor's post about the myth of rational debate as a political keystone, a thing that has nagged at me for a long time

Yeah that was fairly booming

Ditto.

Magical.

A joint UK and Ireland bid to host the football World Cup would help strengthen relations across the Irish Sea post-Brexit, Theresa May has said.

The British prime minister described the "tantalising" prospect of hosting the 2030 tournament as she outlined ways to bolster the bilateral relationship with Ireland after the UK leaves the EU.

Diplomatic ties between London and Dublin, which have improved markedly in recent decades, have been put under renewed strain during the Brexit process.

On a visit to Belfast today, Mrs May said people on both islands "yearned" for a "close and trusting" relationship.

The only way I’m supporting this muck is if commentary is done solely by a jarred Dunphy and an increasingly angry Roy Keane.

by that point we’ll only be able to afford the commentary track from PES 5

Er, so if the UK are to host the World Cup that means no more national teams for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I can see she's thought this one through with her usual thoroughness.

Has she ever watched a match in her life? Do you think she knows there are different teams?