"oh you don't get me I'm the end of the union": lol brexit is how we're all gonna die

there is no reason to declare the vote legitimate nor illegitimate

people are lied to and/or not in full possession of the facts on 100% of issues 100% of the time

there is however also no reason to treat the vote as in any way binding on any one course of action

There has to come a point where a result is cancelled if it’s shown to be affected by campaign law violations. Plus lots of jail time, rather than allowing already wealthy people to just buy their way out of trouble, or price it in to the cost of doing business.

I don't really see how not being around at the time of the Iraq war vote is any test of one's moral integrity. There are {people who voted against the war} and {everyone else}..

Consistently voted for the Iraq war Show votes
5 votes for, 0 votes against, 1 absence, between 2002–2003
Consistently voted against investigations into the Iraq war Show votes
1 vote for, 11 votes against, 3 absences, between 2006–2016

I don't hate him, but this is not a politician I can pretend to like.

but tbf I can't stand most of 'em if I'm honest.

xps I know what your point is. It's that Corbyn is more than adequate for the job and he's made no major errors, and that I'm coming off like one of those ghastly FBPE types. All fair perhaps, but I can only go by what I've seen, and Lammy is saying all the right things right now. I hadn't been aware of his voting for the war - which is a terrible stain upon him - but you'd have hoped he'd sufficiently atoned to the extent where we listen to him on other issues? Perhaps there's no atoning. When I said 'negotiate' I didn't mean we let him off the hook entirely, just...we understand that he did that, and...ugh

I think Lammy, unlike some, has largely stayed on the right side of not patronising Leave voters

― imago, Sunday, 27 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wrong. When it was put to you that Lammy was pro-war your reaction was to not give a shit about hundreds of thousands of dead Iraquis. lol @ 'ugh'. Pedalling back after you've been called on it isn't fooling anyone.

Lammy is fine until he votes through another war after a period examing his conscience.

I might be a bit of too much of a space-cadet/peacenik for my own good, but can't help feeling the world might be a slightly better place with less hawkish politicians (with their heavy burden of conscience of course).

heavy burden of conscience is too much like "imago points" for my liking.

have ye got it sorted yet folks

his speech in switzerland just over a year ago still looks statesmanlike in a way his critics don’t often allow in this regard.

― Fizzles, Sunday, 27 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Re-reading this now and yeah it sure stands the test of time.

obviously i give a shit about the dead Iraqis. it was a truly monstrous war and blair should be executed or whatever. how am i 'not fooling anyone'? you think i'm defending the war? it's indefensible and yet another in a long list of british crimes against humanity

lammy was a young mp towing the party line and while his conscience was clearly not worth shit at the time, he's been good recently and that's what I've noticed him for. hence 'negotiable'. yeah yeah 'just following orders' is the defence of the deathcamp commandant but...look, i didn't know about the war stuff, until i did, and then i didn't want to, hence tried to 'negotiate' it away. maybe you just can't

but i hate the idea that people can't be redeemed

what a mess

"lammy was a young mp towing the party line"

Consistently voted against investigations into the Iraq war Show votes
1 vote for, 11 votes against, 3 absences, between 2006–2016

he's same age as me and I'm not fucking young!

Is that his major negative - voting for the war? I'd almost say that's forgivable now. Or at least...negotiable

― imago, Sunday, 27 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

stop fooling people.

Blair should be executed now? He's just the kind of charismatic politician that gives stirring speeches against Brexiteers. The kind that win "imago points".

yeah but what if that 1 was the big important one

argh

Those racists shouting down that Indian in the US elder last week are young and go to private school - they win "imago points".

blair gives smarmy speeches against socially progressive policies and works for literally the shadiest motherfuckers on earth, he is an opus dei world-building bastard of the first order and patently untrustworthy even at the time people liked him. he collaborated in the knowingly fictive creation of some of the worst foreign policy in living memory and he should not be allowed a public life

oh will you fuck off

He was in cabinet roles from 2002 to 2010 so am assuming he was whipped as part of collective responsibility.

I'm feeling guilty about attacking Lammy now, because all the dead-eyed fash hate him. But he does seem like an overrated, consummate career politician and I can't see much the difference between him and Hilary Benn tbh. as in milking applause with tub-thumping speeches but bad voting record.

I am clarly not winning "imago points" tonight!

i think that people are usually redeemed through some kind of process other than waiting a few years for their transgression to no longer seem relevant to others all the while suffering no consequences

hilary benn gave an actual speech about bombing the fuck out of libya and gammonkind cheered as one. iirc lammy didn't do that at least? straws, clutching, etc

there's little i can argue to plaxico's point though. 'sometimes bad people do good things' is about the best i got

and it isn't very good

He's better than some worse people lets give him that

anyway, this Cooper thing fails tomorrow right?

after that geneva speech the ol hard leftist group chat got v excited abt corbs quoting thomas sankara, boy knows his core

#theAbsoluteBoy

- imago points tho'

ye have it sorted yet

anyway, this Cooper thing fails tomorrow right?

I'm guessing that Corbyn will whip Labour MPs to support it, so its a good litmus test of how rebellious MPs in Leave-voting constituencies are going to be. If they aren't, then it might pass depending on the number of Tory rebels.

I wouldn't rule out widespread abstentions but I hope it carries - if MPs end up voting to reject every option that gets put on the table isn't going to look good to anyone and probably plays into May's hands.

What chance do you give it of passing? Seems like it will be close but not quite enough to get there?

If it did fail, how does that play into May's hands? Does that imply some would vote for the deal but not for Cooper thing?

MPs can't prevent No Deal unless they actively vote for something in its place, if alternative after alternative fails to make it through May can more effectively go "there is no alternative, it's my deal or No Deal" and in a game of who-blinks-first that gives her the advantage.

I get that, but this is an opportunity to put off the blinking for a little while, no?

That needs there to be MPs who voted against the deal, voted against the opportunity to get some breathing room, and then voted for the deal. That doesn't seem like good play

Yes it would be fucking stupid but that's where we are right now.

- imago points tho'

― xyzzzz__, Monday, 28 January 2019 09:49 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

why don't you search 'sankara' on ilx, oldest posts first

Is the UK actually being governed at the moment?

My list of delayed and at-risk policies is still growing (and looking for more): https://t.co/8Crx7jfBIz

Here's my take on all this: https://t.co/bun9OL81KF

And another great one from @TheEconomist: https://t.co/8PD53uiiNK

— Emily Andrews (@Emilyishness) January 25, 2019

why don't you search 'sankara' on ilx, oldest posts first

― imago, Monday, 28 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no

ye have it sorted yet

― david waster phallus (darraghmac), Monday, 28 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Also no

Well let's spell it out then: first mention of Thomas Sankara on ILX ever was yours truly! And guess what? It was a positive mention! Zero points to xyzzzz

can u stop reacting pls

I thought you liked internecine drama between the Angles and the Saxons.

(So to speak).

j and i both have significant roots that are decidedly not angle nor saxon tbf

see i was aware of that context #xls

all of my grandparents born in britain now i think of it

jolly good show old boy. pip pip

I am aware of it too but in the spirit of jus soli rather than jus sanguinis you're both Anglo-Saxons to me.

jus sayin

Are those deems points?

my fave cool debonair putdown is localgarda late of this parish's "really its not for me to say" so really, its not for me to say