"oh you don't get me I'm the end of the union": lol brexit is how we're all gonna die

Lammy one of a tiny handful of politicians to emphasise how the public architects of Brexit are making a mint off it. That kind of talk wins you imago points

Just a pity he didn't make any of his famously emotive speeches when we were fixing to reduce Iraq to rubble.

Is that his major negative - voting for the war? I'd almost say that's forgivable now. Or at least...negotiable

Um

Has he apologised?

Do you realise how many people died because of the Iraq war?

Yeah, millions.

This adds to my point that we need a new generation of politicians untainted by any of the shit of their forebears

one of the funnier things on here is when supporters of the Iraq war get frustrated that ppl keep citing that as a reason to not take their new opinions seriously. they get so mad! which is funny bc it’s actually very sweet of us to not throw every single one of them in a volcano

— KT Nelson (@KrangTNelson) January 23, 2019

Lammy is MP next door to me and I've got a lot of time for him. He has been a tedious centrist on certain issues (cf foreign intervention), and has not always been supportive of our leader, but -
that recent speech in the withdrawal agreement debate was fire, and hit one of the most important issues which Lexiters don't like to look in the face - that Labour voters who voted Leave were lied to, acted on fraudulent information/advice, and it's absolutely right to make that clear. Lammy's alright in my book.

Yeah, millions.

This adds to my point that we need a new generation of politicians untainted by any of the shit of their forebears

― imago, Sunday, 27 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Imagine thinking this crap and going about your daily business.

What's your point?

Imagine being some pretentious abrasive arsehole (glasshouses and stones I know) whose idea of ideological purity is rooted in misanthropic smugness?

I am only an arsehole to you and maybe Fred sometimes. All with good causes.

people who voted remain were lied to as well

So how can you say I am being an arsehole now if you can't even tell what my point is? So rude! xp

voting for the war? I'd almost say that's forgivable now. Or at least...negotiable

I can take or leave this Lammy fellow but the above action is neither negotiable or forgivable it is accessory to mass murder

Lammy's one of my 77 favourite MP who voted for the wars. Top half maybe. But enough spoilers, I'll roll out the full results later this year.

I mean - leave voters were lied to or not in full possession of the facts in 2016, not denying it, but it's not a novelty or a reason to declare the vote illegitimate. there may be a secondary qn on whether the ref was unduly influenced by dodgy money or facebook propaganda but that sounds like spilt milk to me. there was hardly industrial scale ballot-stuffing/voter suppression. not to mention this is p.patronising towards leave voters who need to be won over

Never said it was a reason to declare the vote illegitimate. Neither did Lammy, I believe.

Not patronising - you may as well say that telling working conservative class voters why the Tories have lied to them, why they haven't got any richer, or why their ideas about imigrants affecting the economy, are patronising. The EU referendum was not a magical moment where false consciousness* suddenly disappeared.

*which I happen to essentially believe in

edit: "affecting the economy... are incorrect"

xps I know what your point is. It's that Corbyn is more than adequate for the job and he's made no major errors, and that I'm coming off like one of those ghastly FBPE types. All fair perhaps, but I can only go by what I've seen, and Lammy is saying all the right things right now. I hadn't been aware of his voting for the war - which is a terrible stain upon him - but you'd have hoped he'd sufficiently atoned to the extent where we listen to him on other issues? Perhaps there's no atoning. When I said 'negotiate' I didn't mean we let him off the hook entirely, just...we understand that he did that, and...ugh

I think Lammy, unlike some, has largely stayed on the right side of not patronising Leave voters

I welcome any Labour MP who wants to support Corbyn and the current front bench.

Well exactly. It's not like he's on Team Cooper

I don't have too much of a problem with Lammy, but I think he tends to be overrated, he's good for the occasional barnstorming tubthumper of a speech but I don't see too much going on behind it. I'm sure he's a good constituency MP. Also Celebrity Mastermind.

there is no reason to declare the vote legitimate nor illegitimate

people are lied to and/or not in full possession of the facts on 100% of issues 100% of the time

there is however also no reason to treat the vote as in any way binding on any one course of action

There has to come a point where a result is cancelled if it’s shown to be affected by campaign law violations. Plus lots of jail time, rather than allowing already wealthy people to just buy their way out of trouble, or price it in to the cost of doing business.

I don't really see how not being around at the time of the Iraq war vote is any test of one's moral integrity. There are {people who voted against the war} and {everyone else}..

Consistently voted for the Iraq war Show votes
5 votes for, 0 votes against, 1 absence, between 2002–2003
Consistently voted against investigations into the Iraq war Show votes
1 vote for, 11 votes against, 3 absences, between 2006–2016

I don't hate him, but this is not a politician I can pretend to like.

but tbf I can't stand most of 'em if I'm honest.

xps I know what your point is. It's that Corbyn is more than adequate for the job and he's made no major errors, and that I'm coming off like one of those ghastly FBPE types. All fair perhaps, but I can only go by what I've seen, and Lammy is saying all the right things right now. I hadn't been aware of his voting for the war - which is a terrible stain upon him - but you'd have hoped he'd sufficiently atoned to the extent where we listen to him on other issues? Perhaps there's no atoning. When I said 'negotiate' I didn't mean we let him off the hook entirely, just...we understand that he did that, and...ugh

I think Lammy, unlike some, has largely stayed on the right side of not patronising Leave voters

― imago, Sunday, 27 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wrong. When it was put to you that Lammy was pro-war your reaction was to not give a shit about hundreds of thousands of dead Iraquis. lol @ 'ugh'. Pedalling back after you've been called on it isn't fooling anyone.

Lammy is fine until he votes through another war after a period examing his conscience.

I might be a bit of too much of a space-cadet/peacenik for my own good, but can't help feeling the world might be a slightly better place with less hawkish politicians (with their heavy burden of conscience of course).

heavy burden of conscience is too much like "imago points" for my liking.

have ye got it sorted yet folks

his speech in switzerland just over a year ago still looks statesmanlike in a way his critics don’t often allow in this regard.

― Fizzles, Sunday, 27 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Re-reading this now and yeah it sure stands the test of time.

obviously i give a shit about the dead Iraqis. it was a truly monstrous war and blair should be executed or whatever. how am i 'not fooling anyone'? you think i'm defending the war? it's indefensible and yet another in a long list of british crimes against humanity

lammy was a young mp towing the party line and while his conscience was clearly not worth shit at the time, he's been good recently and that's what I've noticed him for. hence 'negotiable'. yeah yeah 'just following orders' is the defence of the deathcamp commandant but...look, i didn't know about the war stuff, until i did, and then i didn't want to, hence tried to 'negotiate' it away. maybe you just can't

but i hate the idea that people can't be redeemed

what a mess

"lammy was a young mp towing the party line"

Consistently voted against investigations into the Iraq war Show votes
1 vote for, 11 votes against, 3 absences, between 2006–2016

he's same age as me and I'm not fucking young!

Is that his major negative - voting for the war? I'd almost say that's forgivable now. Or at least...negotiable

― imago, Sunday, 27 January 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

stop fooling people.

Blair should be executed now? He's just the kind of charismatic politician that gives stirring speeches against Brexiteers. The kind that win "imago points".

yeah but what if that 1 was the big important one

argh

Those racists shouting down that Indian in the US elder last week are young and go to private school - they win "imago points".

blair gives smarmy speeches against socially progressive policies and works for literally the shadiest motherfuckers on earth, he is an opus dei world-building bastard of the first order and patently untrustworthy even at the time people liked him. he collaborated in the knowingly fictive creation of some of the worst foreign policy in living memory and he should not be allowed a public life

oh will you fuck off

He was in cabinet roles from 2002 to 2010 so am assuming he was whipped as part of collective responsibility.

I'm feeling guilty about attacking Lammy now, because all the dead-eyed fash hate him. But he does seem like an overrated, consummate career politician and I can't see much the difference between him and Hilary Benn tbh. as in milking applause with tub-thumping speeches but bad voting record.

I am clarly not winning "imago points" tonight!

i think that people are usually redeemed through some kind of process other than waiting a few years for their transgression to no longer seem relevant to others all the while suffering no consequences

hilary benn gave an actual speech about bombing the fuck out of libya and gammonkind cheered as one. iirc lammy didn't do that at least? straws, clutching, etc

there's little i can argue to plaxico's point though. 'sometimes bad people do good things' is about the best i got

and it isn't very good

He's better than some worse people lets give him that

anyway, this Cooper thing fails tomorrow right?

after that geneva speech the ol hard leftist group chat got v excited abt corbs quoting thomas sankara, boy knows his core