US Politics January 2019: we are #ready to drop something much, much bigger

Well, W had his core approval rating just a couple of points lower (which, also distressing, but the point is, that core just sits there).

Anyway, dude is trying to float DACA again but who’d believe him, and how quickly will he backtrack after Ann etc whine about it.

Terrible trade even if he does offer it

I don’t know. If it really meant people living here don’t need to live in fear, it’s worth a pointless wall.

that 31 percent there, that is the terrifyingly large floor of truly insane propaganda dupes and racists

...yeah and his behavior is governed by them, and vice versa.

Part of the mythology of the base is that want a fighting fighter who fights, who is strong and resolute and doesn't back down. (At least those are the optics they say they want. In truth, he changes his "mind" constantly.)

Trump has no incentive to budge here, because if he loses any of the froth-beflecked base voters, there is no way he gain gain enough normals to compensate. Hence, the fight is more important than the wall itself.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-is-the-president-of-the-republican-base--not-the-country/2019/01/11/3862aa9c-150f-11e9-90a8-136fa44b80ba_story.html?utm_term=.5da032ed56b3

xp no it's fucking not

I don’t know. If it really meant people living here don’t need to live in fear, it’s worth a pointless wall.

― Trϵϵship, 13. januar 2019 16:45 (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

If he offers something that he can't just unilaterally rescind later on, then there might be the contours of a deal. But he won't.

assuming the wall is probably an ecological disaster as well, wildlife etc?

If he offers something that he can't just unilaterally rescind later on, then there might be the contours of a deal. But he won't.

Exactly. You can't make any deal with Trump, because nothing he offers stays on the table. Two hours later, he's had another mini-stroke and taken it away again.

Good point

xp yes, that's one of the biggest problems with any sort of compromise here

Given DACA was a legal blur to get around GOP intransigence on immigration, and that as recently as 2018 was basically legally affirmed as secure from Trump's assholery (right?), I don't see why any empty promise of further DACA security means shit. Clearly the GOP has no problem hammering away at established law, be it DACA, Roe, ACA etc., so why accept their support as anything but an disingenuous ruse? I can think of no reason for the Dems to give in to a wall, which not only gives asshole something to run on, not only gives him something more to boast about, but also results in yet another big, expensive eye-sore with his name on it. Fuck it and fuck him, he gets nothing.

Like, The Wall is basically the last of his more iconic catchphrase campaign "promises" he has yet to fulfill, that and "lock her up." Why give him the win? Funding the fucking wall is like making a campaign donation. In a month after it ends no one will even remember there ever was a shutdown.

before it's a boondoggle, before it's a declaration of trump/MAGA ego, before anything else, the wall is a completely unacceptable symbol of racist hatred, xenophobia and basically fascism. it is not something to be bargained over but something to be rejected utterly as a policy decision motivated by pathetic animus and relentlessly-stoked ill will among the citizenry. horse-trading around it normalizes it and grants legitimacy to the entire nonsensical and evil discourse that called it into existence. fuck anyone prepared to accept the wall in exchange for any damned thing anyone could ever offer.

Yeah, all those things are absolutely true *before* you even get to the stupid politics of the thing.

it's the whole visage of compromise that so many idiot centrists subscribe to. a even trade! just missing that one of the items goes against the spirit of the other, as far as Dems are concerned.

I support the wall if it's put around the White House

Think I'd rather hear it was put around the current occupant of the White House or has he totally devalued the U.S. national symbol beyond hope of return already?
JUst hoping that the next occupant can return some meaning to the role.

Meanwhile leaving the orange one between a continuous roofless wall somewhere without amenities.

can he be made into a ceramic person like the main character in After Hours

or a puppet in the "Land of Confusion" video

No puppet!

doctor casino otm

You can't make any deal with Trump, because nothing he offers stays on the table. Two hours later, he's had another mini-stroke and taken it away again.

i don't think trump's mercurial nature is worth worrying about in terms of him reneging on a deal, because in this case it's legislation they're arguing about. he either agrees to the terms of a deal and signs it after congress passes it, or he doesn't.

*of course, if chuck and nancy agree to some sort of stupid thing where they agree to build the wall in exchange for some vague promise about trump doing something in the future that isn't written into the budget resolution, then that's really dumb. but i don't think they'll do that.

as a more political addendum to my earlier screed: even if all of the above did not make it a categorical imperative to refuse the wall: there is no scenario where you "just give him the wall" and dust your hands off. once money is appropriated for it, from that point on, even before sites are surveyed and land is acquired and bulldozers hit the scene, you now have created a whole new political status quo where getting rid of the damned thing becomes like abolishing ICE. it's a whole new campaign you have to wage because this horrible thing got created and is now one of the political facts of the country. the "radical" position will be to cancel and demolish the wall and it will be politically impossible. the ""moderate"" republicans and democrats will debate over whether to appropriate an additional $5 billion for this year's patrols and staffing and machine gun turrets, or just $4.5 billion. that will become the US immigration debate. maybe i'm catastrophizing but it is at least possible that a wall, once enacted, becomes a weird third-rail issue that the majority of politicians see as not worth the bother to deal with.

meanwhile to every nonwhite american it will stand and grow as an obvious "fuck you, you aren't part of our pure nation" statement, the moral equivalent of building two thousand miles of confederate memorial statues. there's nothing to discuss here and nothing to gain and imho we should leave it to cynical, privileged, nothing-at-stake white politicians to bumble around outing themselves as such by treating it as just another bit of policy to bargain over. tbqh it is startling and impressive to see pelosi and schumer, having finally got one house to work with, actually treating it that way. i brace myself for the day when they don't, but at least right now, with trump taking the blame for the shutdown and his numbers continuing to drift downward, i don't have to count on them having strong moral compasses, just good political instincts. and on that level, pelosi at least is no fool: whether it's the wall or anything else, why set a precedent for letting the president singlehandedly dictate all legislation via hostage-taking? once you do that your congressional majority becomes worthless. in conclusion, fuck trump.

i don't think trump's mercurial nature is worth worrying about in terms of him reneging on a deal, because in this case it's legislation they're arguing about. he either agrees to the terms of a deal and signs it after congress passes it, or he doesn't.

*of course, if chuck and nancy agree to some sort of stupid thing where they agree to build the wall in exchange for some vague promise about trump doing something in the future that isn't written into the budget resolution, then that's really dumb. but i don't think they'll do that.

― Karl Malone, 13. januar 2019 17:48 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, I mean, the deal to make would be comprehensive immigration reform, which would include a path to citizenship as well as the fucked up wall. If both GOP and Dem voted for it, it would be impossible for Trump to unilaterally change.

doc otm

the deal to make would be comprehensive immigration reform, which would include a path to citizenship as well as the fucked up wall.

no thanks, see doc c's post above

definitely. zero dollars for the dumb fucking wall, not in exchange for anything.

i mean there was a comprehensive immigration reform bill that passed the senate in 2013. the later infamous "gang of eight" compromise bill. it did not have a wall. it did have increased numbers of border patrol agents. it had a path to citizenship (the infamous "amnesty" for which rubio was later pilloried) and DREAMer provisions. it never got to obama's desk because boehner bottled it up in the House. so it's not like there has to be a wall for us to address these issues. there just has to be a wall under racist xenophobe president donald trump.

(haven't dug into/remembered, but my imagination is that boehner did not give a shit but already realized he was completely boxed in by the freedom caucus. and i'm not saying there were not super problematic or xenophobic parts of that bill as part of its "compromise," but nothing in comparison to a fucking border wall.)

I think you’re right that it would change the whole parqdign of border security so there’d be people partolling every inch of it, more unexpected violence, etc. and also it’s a symbol of hate, not just an ineffectual fence of steel slats.

*paradigm

plus, as conservatives who just happen to believe climate change is a hoax always bring bring up when it comes to wind turbines - what about all the birds who will hit the wall and die??

i think its possible to tell him they will fund the wall and then when they build it its just a bunch of solar panels and it doesnt actually block the border and the trump will be so mad that he dies, its a win win win

"sorry, these solar panels are steel slats just like u wanted"

*trump is so mad kfc gravy shoots out of his eyes*

triple bottom line, win-win-win

oh wait, and then that would be so much actual winning that trump's supporters would be tired of winning!!

...is this actually how all this gets resolved? god DAMN that would be satisfying

I mean, another thing that would make the whole deal unworkable is that everyone seemingly agrees you can't build a wall for 5,6 billion.

That's one of the mysteries: why that amount? Why 5.7 billion?

Because it's so easy to remember...

before it's a boondoggle, before it's a declaration of trump/MAGA ego, before anything else, the wall is a completely unacceptable symbol of racist hatred, xenophobia and basically fascism. it is not something to be bargained over but something to be rejected utterly as a policy decision motivated by pathetic animus and relentlessly-stoked ill will among the citizenry. horse-trading around it normalizes it and grants legitimacy to the entire nonsensical and evil discourse that called it into existence. fuck anyone prepared to accept the wall in exchange for any damned thing anyone could ever offer.

― |Restore| |Restart| |Quit| (Doctor Casino), Sunday, January 13, 2019 9:08 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm, this is line in the sand stuff

fuck the wall. MEDICARE FOR ALL

Oh, and the WaPo/ABC poll finds net support for declaring an emergency at -35.

— Josh Chafetz (@joshchafetz) January 13, 2019

A sign of how bad Trump is at negotiating. Declaring a national emergency would be highly unpopular, even more so than the wall itself, and would create a lot of awkward arguments within the GOP. Threatening to declare one creates an incentive for Democrats *not* to compromise. https://t.co/9nZ92heXPn

— Nate Silver (@NateSilver538) January 13, 2019

A sign of how bad Trump is at negotiating.

At this point, he's not negotiating but performing, partly because he doesn't know what else to do with the mess he's made. But unless Trump negotiates, he'll do so much damage to the government and to all the tens of millions of citizens who depend on a functioning government, that many people will die and the lives of most US citizens will be direly altered for the worse.

This is a man who declared bankruptcy four different times, after totally screwing over his lenders and business partners, but he can't just magically wipe away his mess this time.

However, Trump is against abortion, so we know he is God's Chosen Leader and this is no doubt part of God's Master Plan for The Greatest Nation on Earth.

the shutdown is just unspeakably bad and makes me so fucking mad. i haven't reached this level of angry since 2016.

However, Trump is against abortion, so we know he is God's Chosen Leader and this is no doubt part of God's Master Plan for The Greatest Nation on Earth.

Correct, except he’s probably not against abortion, he just says he is because it’s the right answer for conservatives. I’m sure they will be *shocked* when he declares that abortion is fine, post-presidency.

(but yes, i know, it doesn't matter what he actually thinks, only what he does)

(psst Aimless knew that)

If we stopped telling each other things we all know we all know what would this thread be for?

Has anyone here seen their food supply severely affected? I saw photos of empty produce stands at the big farmers market where I used to live in DeKalb County, GA