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― topical mlady (darraghmac), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 09:24 (five years ago) link
sorry i should be clearer tbf
i did read it as a kinda scathing comment out of nowhere and reacted badly, but as it was meant its a fair query
can only say i guess that the gaps i feel are in mindhunter pull it below what id wish for based on what it achieves on other levels, whereas the likes of king, if i were to read these days, keep their faults to a level of consistency/vibe within the work that does the job i need it to
obv highly subjective.
nb will probably watch this as a result of going over the cooler parts in my head in order to defend position
― topical mlady (darraghmac), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 11:25 (five years ago) link
what does âchat me upâ in thread title refer to?
― kinder, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 12:49 (five years ago) link
i guess the evolving BTK sideplot is supposed to be a carrot for us? but i dont really care about that, the show will just as likely suffer as improve if and when the action moves to that case, and no more freak of the week.
i'm not super excited about S2, but what the show does well (pretty much: freak of the week) is too good to miss so i'll def watch
― rip van wanko, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 13:07 (five years ago) link
i just wanna watch dude talk to sociology grad students
― j., Wednesday, 9 January 2019 13:09 (five years ago) link
thanks kinder. Was debating whether to step in myself :)
― Number None, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 13:13 (five years ago) link
Despite my feelings that serial killer stories basically appeal to the same impulses as superhero stories -- the daft codenames, the secret identities, the silly MOs, the OTT violence, the titillation, the characters living outside rules of society (which is why I think Heath Ledger's Joker was such a hit, combining the comics and serial killer worlds so successfully) -- I have enjoyed Mindhunter tremedously, even with its flaws.
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 9 January 2019 23:09 (five years ago) link
I've never been a particularly huge fan of the titillation factor in serial killer fiction (or fact!), what does work is the element of solving the mystery or the great spooky unknown out there and trying to stop them, and also the ultimate reasons behind their killer instincts. well i guess it's arguable as to whether or not that involves a bit of the titillation factor, probably it does. but i appreciate how the show doesn't linger long on graphic violence, and how in fact beyond the opening scene of the show the only onscreen violent act is a very quick, non-graphic one involving a bird.
― omar little, Wednesday, 9 January 2019 23:21 (five years ago) link
The one thing confirmed about âMindhunterâ Season 2 is that it will feature the Atlanta Child Murders. As executive producer David Fincher told Billboard in 2017, âNext year weâre looking at the Atlanta child murders, so weâll have a lot more African-American music which will be nice.â
i uh
what
― michael keaton IS jim thirlwell IN âfoetaljuiceâ (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 9 May 2019 08:51 (five years ago) link
Xpost yes, i thght the lack of violence was refreshing. serial killers interest for me was not ab the violence but the understanding of all types of ppl. understanding society.
― nathom, Friday, 10 May 2019 09:30 (five years ago) link
I've been waiting for this. (Very awkward quote about the music there--the music in the first season was quite good at times.) I think I started James Baldwin's book on those murders but may not have finished it.
― clemenza, Friday, 10 May 2019 11:39 (five years ago) link
That quote is so gross. Fuck serial killer entertainment.
― One Eye Open, Friday, 10 May 2019 12:20 (five years ago) link
"Nice"
― nathom, Friday, 10 May 2019 14:36 (five years ago) link
Clem, what book is it? By Baldwin
― nathom, Friday, 10 May 2019 14:40 (five years ago) link
I was watching Marcella but just bailed on season two because it's all about child murder and pedophilia and I am like ffs, this is not entertainment.
― Yerac, Friday, 10 May 2019 14:44 (five years ago) link
It's weird how they keep making seasons of shows I don't watch.
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, 10 May 2019 14:58 (five years ago) link
i refuse to believe it
― j., Friday, 10 May 2019 15:01 (five years ago) link
(xpost) The Evidence of Things Not Seen:
http://www.amazon.ca/Evidence-Things-Not-Seen-Reissued/dp/0805039392
(Coincidence: reading another book right now, a true-crime thing, that uses that for a chapter title.)
I agree that that Fincher quote is insensitive to say the least, but as far as the show goes, it can't be news that great art comes from the worst sort of human behaviour imaginable.
― clemenza, Friday, 10 May 2019 20:08 (five years ago) link
Season 1 might not have been great art, but it was good art for sure.
― clemenza, Friday, 10 May 2019 20:09 (five years ago) link
Thanks! Will order the book.
― nathom, Friday, 10 May 2019 20:14 (five years ago) link
Found out that Damon Herriman (Dewey Crowe from Justified) is playing Charles Manson this season & I am v happy with that casting, i reckon heâll be great
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 11 May 2019 01:49 (five years ago) link
He's also playing Manson in the Tarantino movie
― Number None, Saturday, 11 May 2019 06:44 (five years ago) link
Yeah, the idea that no art should be made about crimes is completely moronic and censorious, though not quite as stupid as the notion that all art is no more than entertainment, as if the reaction of every viewer to every piece of art ever made can be assumed to be the same and thus this subject is off limits.
Works should be judged on their merits but even things we find stupid or cheap probably still prompt a broadening of our perspective as we form those views.
― FernandoHierro, Saturday, 11 May 2019 08:28 (five years ago) link
Well, maybe not, but I get Yerac's point.
― nathom, Saturday, 11 May 2019 12:36 (five years ago) link
yeah, like how many more times do we need to see gratuitous rape that serves no purpose to a plotline (fictional plotlines not true crime docs). I was reading a thing about Hannibal and how they purposefully stayed away from those types of things and still managed to make a singular, super expressive and beautiful show about gruesome crimes.
― Yerac, Saturday, 11 May 2019 15:58 (five years ago) link
Some things are good, others are bad.
― FernandoHierro, Saturday, 11 May 2019 19:06 (five years ago) link
i just started this (s1, e4 so far) and made the mistake of watching an ep right after an old brooklyn 99 and now i can't unsee tench as scully :(
i have other thoughts also inc.the fact that a piece i wrote for arena mag in 1989, abt serial killers as a rising pop cult phenom, quoted the kemper head-on-a-stick line that's upthread -- and that bret easton ellis probablhy read arena mag in those days and so i gave him the idea for american psycho. but not the idea that ed gein said that line
― mark s, Wednesday, 12 June 2019 20:37 (four years ago) link
the giant dateline intertitles are excellent and hilarious and always a bit scary
― mark s, Wednesday, 12 June 2019 21:33 (four years ago) link
my sister pointed out that holden looks like MACRON so this is a wild ride every time i'm reminded this is the sequence-killer-chatting adventures of macron and scully (but not that scully)
― mark s, Thursday, 13 June 2019 10:48 (four years ago) link
I've thought that myself, he really does.
― FernandoHierro, Thursday, 13 June 2019 10:55 (four years ago) link
lol the sequence i am finding it hardest to watch is when he is teaching the little schoolkids abt the "disturbed" -- it's like DON'T SAY THAT, DON'T SAY THAT EITHER, OH NO OH NO, DON'T SAY THAAAAAAAT :(
― mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 18:49 (four years ago) link
i didn't really like the holden ford character to start with -- it was like someone over-performing not having a clue, his levels of rigidity and of openness seemed bogus -- but after the tickling ep maybe it's beginning to gel
(i also feel like each ep is beginning with the chesspieces of each character's stance and perspective not in quite the same place (or quantity) they were at the end of the previous ep -- something like that, i don't know how to explain it -- but i like this aspect, it fits in with goffman kinda) (i have read no goffman, but what i imagine goffman is talking about)
― mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 20:34 (four years ago) link
huge letters:
JOLIET Illinois
― mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 20:37 (four years ago) link
ok the scene where they brainstorm thru to "serial killer" is bad
― mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 21:17 (four years ago) link
mark do u plan to read goffman
― RUSSIAâS SEXIEST POKER STAR ELECTROCUTED BY HAIRDRYER (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 14 June 2019 21:21 (four years ago) link
not tonight
― mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 21:21 (four years ago) link
i'm watching mindhunter
so would u say youârewaiting for goffman
― RUSSIAâS SEXIEST POKER STAR ELECTROCUTED BY HAIRDRYER (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 14 June 2019 21:22 (four years ago) link
quantico i'd like to report a murder, it was justified everyone says so
― mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 21:24 (four years ago) link
i like that the local cops are mostly smart not dumb
― mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 21:46 (four years ago) link
you should read 'relations in public', it's the best
(it's not actually great for what you're hinting at itt but it's great nonetheless)
― j., Friday, 14 June 2019 21:49 (four years ago) link
the kemper scene in e10 is very thomas harris: where lecter says that a "real bottomfeeder" came up with the organised/disorganised category, also (from memory) "do you think you can dissect me with this little tool?" -- also the orderly leaving the pen
(tho i'm guessing harris knows kemper's interviews and habits by heart, so maybe the ideas are running the other way)
― mark s, Friday, 14 June 2019 23:10 (four years ago) link
I was in a cafe earlier and In The Light by Led Zeppelin came on and it'll forever be associated with serial killers for me now because of this show
― nate woolls, Saturday, 15 June 2019 05:40 (four years ago) link
Donovan's Hurdy-gURDY mAN the same, due to Zodiac.
― And according to some websites, there were âsexcapades.â (James Morrison), Sunday, 16 June 2019 00:59 (four years ago) link
Three Dog Nightâs âEasy to Be Hardâ too
― omar little, Sunday, 16 June 2019 02:39 (four years ago) link
I love Mindhunter but am determined not to allow anything to diminish Hurdy Gurdy Man for me
― Dan S, Sunday, 16 June 2019 02:46 (four years ago) link
OK I completed S1 and these are my thoughts!
There are three interlocked structures, two developmental, one (for want of a better word lol) dialectical.
One: is Holdenâs own journey. The season has to get him from wide-eyed puppy full of innocent curiosity to an improvising maverick who has (a) semi-mastered a certain kind of interrogative technique and (b) found he enjoys the power of it, to fuck with heads (not all of them the subjects of the research programme) and (c) is hooked on finding out what happens when he takes it further. Thereâs the FBI rules â which we start off thinking are wrong and fuddy-duddy and end up thinking wait, maybe some of these constraints are good, evil puritan perv Hoover notwithstanding. So in answer to the Q what goes on in the serial killerâs mind, we actually watching a version of it unfolding in Holden: heâs not killing but he is exploring the pleasures of freeing himself from social (or in this case professional) limits.
Two: is Foucaldian lol. The evolution of a new discipline: towards a set point (the viewersâ modern understanding of it, as shaped by endless post-Hannibal True Crime and Made-up Crime serial-killer books and docs. Two tough elements here: one is re-establishing how people thought before any of this arrived, and not having it just be laughable and ridiculous. Like the FBI restrictions on interviewers acting in sympathy with the perp to get them chatty â not because it encroached on entrapment (like Hoover cared about that) but because it might make the Bureau look bad. Respectability in advance of effectiveness. (Sidenote: I remember seeing a true-life UK copper â a grizzled old sergeant in charge of the motor-pool, as itâs not called in the UK, sighingly describing the effect of The Sweeney on force behaviour in the 1970s. He said that before The Sweeney everyone parked tidily and neatly: afterwards they all pulled in their cars higgledy-piggledy to the kerb, or up on it, and ran about. Also far more cars came in scratched and dinged. Cops watch cop shows and copy them!) Three: every ep more or less takes a related âissueâ and dissects it morally and procedurally, via discussion between the main three (plus subaltern discussion with the old-school boss and the GF and local cops). So far so good so O/G Law and Order: a quasi-Socratic discussion with each character taking a line, throwing in their truth-bombs, to produce a clearer understanding that remains dynamic and dramatic and conflicted and in tension. I havenât mapped this out, but it feels like they also switch it up a bit: so that for each new ep and issue, the main three (and sometimes the the old-school boss and the GF) come in with their truthbombs from different perspectives. Like they take it in turn to use the âhow can you sympathise with this guy who raped and murdered a child?â line, to reshape the discussion from whichever angle. Partly this is because everyone is on a One-type learning curve, as Two evolves. But it feels like thereâs a bit of formalist playfulness also going on here, for the purposes of ambiguity and disorientation.
Re One: well, I found early Holden a bit annoying and convincing, because heâs always balancing his two poles, and this was a bit over-evident because he didnât always get the balance correct (in the sense of convincing).
Re Two: you get the Beethovenâs Fifth / Manzarek keyboard biopic effect, the depiction of someone in the process of arriving at something they donât yet know, which you the viewer are so intimately aware of and familiar with that it canât not be funny when they hit on it. Like the scene where they brainstorm through to âserial killerâ as the term of art. Something like that probably happened! (Though not in 90 seconds of discussionâŚ) It was a bad and silly scene: but this is tough stuff to do well.
Re Three: possibly a more effective way to deliver all of the above would be Brechtian (i.e.stylised, so that the games and the goals were more foregrounded) and also funny, like a comedy, Brooklyn 99 via The Good Place, maybe. I mean more of a comedy than it is (itâs a comedy, albeit kept very very low-key â thatâs why the datelines are in such big letters). Could it have been greenlit as a stylised Brechtian thing what was also stone-face serious? I think not: formal play of that kind is still locked out of real-life television drama. So as a result, one two and three grind against on another a bit, so that the sense of the scriptwriters heavily moving the moral-analytical chess pieces is (occasionally) on the nose. I donât mind this â itâs kind of part of how a critic she be attending to a drama anyway, trope watch stuff â but I think they could actually have more (more effective?) fun with foregrounding it! It shd be a choice not an unavoidable error â something like that.
Re the Tickling Principal: discussion above abt why this plot line? The ilx conclusion was that it pins down changing mores, which yes, thatâs part of it. But another part is this: the evolution of the tale as itâs being worked needs at some (late mid) point to focus the viewerâs spotlight of worry â re getting the wrong guy, or overreacting, or manipulating to a bogus arrest/execution â and to properly dramatise whatâs at stake. But thereâs no scope in the show â perhaps because of historical fidelity but also because of plot believability â for Holden in particular and the Unit as a whole to have made a horrible moral/professional error, in re an actual case (or an actual interview). One slip like that and it all falls in. So the story has to step sideways, and create an analogy which makes the stakes clear while actually being more or less risk-free for the main project and plot-line. It gets us to think âDid Holden fuck up there? What if he likewise fucks up on main?â But without causing a catastrophic wobble on main.
― mark s, Sunday, 16 June 2019 11:58 (four years ago) link
(by "Brechtian" I guess I partly mean that being "convincing" needn't be such a big deal. Comedy is one way through this, various kinds of formalist anti-realist stylisations offer others: and in fact i think this drama is very low-key formalist anti-realist stylisation as well as very low-key comedyâŚ)
― mark s, Sunday, 16 June 2019 12:01 (four years ago) link
Good stuff.
― Rolling Thunderdome Revue (PBKR), Sunday, 16 June 2019 13:14 (four years ago) link
https://ew.com/tv/2019/07/17/mindhunter-season-2-photos-jonathan-groff-david-fincher/
― omar little, Thursday, 18 July 2019 05:31 (four years ago) link