one out all out: a brexit from the modern world and every one of its problems please (we're all gonna die lol)

If you think that May's deal is unpopular wait til you see how a Corbyn-led deal would be received. They've already promised things that are undeliverable - eg "the exact same benefits" as the Single Market without actually being in it. Even if they keep us in the Customs Union then it's unlikely that Remainers would just accept it.

The howls of Brexit betrayal from the right would be ten times as loud as they are right now. The Tories, hungry for revenge, would happily join in. It's a deal that would please precisely no-one and there is no way he'd be able to get it through Parliament without a majority and it would need to be a sizeable one and I don't see how Labour get that with things balanced as they currently are. It would be a complete clusterfuck that would seriously hamper their ability to do anything else.

Which I suppose is my way of saying that there are only really two viable approaches for Labour here. One is to accept that Brexit is going to be a disaster and oppose it, in the knowledge that they'll reap the benefits later on. The other is to STFU and ensure that the Tories have 100% ownership over the disaster. Both are full of risks and anyone claiming they aren't is either lying or deluded. This week's comments don't amount to much more than interrupting your enemy while they're making a mistake.

Matt otm: zero tolerance for bigotry. And MPs aren’t especially rare, skilled labour - they’re tools (yeah, yeah) and they can be replaced.

I get what Matt is saying. As I see this its either May's deal or a general election - and I'd rather the deal was voted down because there is a chance the government could fall over it.

Brexit would be a number of issues facing any government.

What is a non-starter is People's Vote - not least because of the way they behave...these ppl are totally unable to do politics.

Here is the petition. Its started by a Lab MP but FBPE ppl are signing it:

https://www.change.org/p/jeremy-corbyn-labour-must-now-lead-on-a-people-s-vote

These ppl aren't getting Labout MPs to split and form a "real opposition" so after screaming out they are pleading with St Jeremy.

re: Williamson, one of the things in that Corbyn interview is on a more democratic process in regards to selection of MPs.

anybody who doesn't think "People's vote" is a foul, ugly, patronising, antagonising phrase is probably on Mandelson's dick tbh

IRRESPECTIVE OF THE POLITICS BEHIND IT, ANGRY EU FANS

I mean it sort of makes sense as a popular vote on the deal as opposed to a Parliamentary vote, but I'm increasingly sceptical of the phrase "The People" being used in any context.

yeah, that's a lot of it. and the implication that people who don't want it are non-people.

it has the tang of the eternal centrist claim of reasonableness, straights and normies

otm, just screaming contempt at the part of the population they need to win over.

In what stage of grief are we now with this lot?

mostly denial

The fuck are you people on about.

~the aesthetics of brexit~

I think people could come on board with the idea of ratification, also nagl to oppose ‘populism’ while lobbying for something called a People’s Vote.

Twitter is *carnage* for Corbyn today, featuring dunderheadedness from snippy media centre-leftists who are usually ‘oooh I *never* read the comments’ when plebs express themselves in similar fashion. Maybe they ought to read the interview properly?

Also, MDC OTM as usual.

It's a people's vote because it's getting the people, rather than MPs, to vote down Brexit.

We all know that if it wasn't electoral suicide in a lot of places, the Commons would cancel Brexit in a heartbeat, but that would be a terrible idea.

The clearance to do it has to come from the people, the whole point of this is defanging that Will of the People bollocks that has been used as a cudgel for the last two years.

the right sort of people's vote

I see I skipped Matt, as per, making the same point better.

Sigh.

The point I'm making is that, no matter how amazing the Labour manifesto is in the event of a snap election, if they win it narrowly then having to deliver Brexit against massive opposition from both sides means they aren't going to get to do any of the good shit.

And in any case a 2nd referendum is if anything more likely than a snap election, there isn't going to be one for the simple fact that every Tory MP knows they might lose it and the DUP would lose the leverage they had. There's magical thinking going on all over the place right now and it's not just from People's Vote types.

what's the question on this people's vote again? may deal vs remain? it's probably the best of all possible options though it would reek of quite the stitch up

Andrew I know we butt heads on the underlying issue but seriously, the medium destroys the message in this phrase, these cunts need to sell ref 2 if they're to have a chance and most of them, politically, don't give a fuck about "the people" as abstract, will and idea, hence this shitty dysphoria. This is a big part of why remain lost in the first place.

xxp I'm not disagreeing with any of that, just in case I'm not clear.

This is all via twitter - Reading the interview and this is one of the bits pulled out:

“State aid rules do need to be looked at ... if you want to regenerate an economy, as we would want to do in government, then I don’t want to be told by somebody else that we can’t use state aid in order to be able to develop industry in this country.”

And from this, a report on the rail 'reforms' in France:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44222005

The strikes are seen as Emmanuel Macron's biggest challenge since becoming president a year ago.

Ministers want to phase out generous conditions for rail workers such as automatic annual pay rises, early retirement, 28 days of paid annual leave and protection from dismissal. Close relatives are also entitled to free rail tickets.

They want to open up the state network to competition from 2023 in line with EU requirements. The government also plans to absorb some €35bn of the rail company's debt, reportedly in two stages.

Its a big part of what the FBPE crowd really don't like.

would wager there's a high chance labour top team have known full well for a minute now may won't call an election this side of 2022. and so have double downed on pushing for an election because they know it means tories will have to own brexit completely. this was what was so worrying when yvette cooper et all were calling for a grand coalition - labour don't want any of this blood on their hands. is this irresponsible? yes.

and so it's understandable why people are very frustrated with this position because it means the opposition are not ~opposing~. the politics are so fraught for labour though, that lining up behind a second referendum (without seeing a significant shift in the polls in key areas of their electoral college) could kill them at the next GE

cameron is such a fuckwit. he's unleashed so many animal spirits that cannot be put back in the box. we'll be arguing about this (and it will move votes) for the next thirty years.

Probably the most OTM post in the thread.

We are living in completely different universes, NV - the people I know pushing a second vote are as far from Lib Dem / New Labour as you can get - it's because of the effect of this on the poor and disadvantaged (and the fact that Brexit is sucking up all of the attention in the room from how they're already getting fucked) that they're in favour of this.

it's understandable why people are very frustrated with this position because it means the opposition are not ~opposing~. the politics are so fraught for labour though, that lining up behind a second referendum (without seeing a significant shift in the polls in key areas of their electoral college) could kill them at the next GE

This is the crux of the problem really, it's electorally defensible but is it the right thing to do? For the first half of this decade Labour didn't oppose austerity. From the mid-90s onwards they didn't oppose neoliberal economic reforms. The polling data made that a defensible standpoint from an electoral point of view even if it wasn't from a moral one. Both of these had long-term consequences that we're still dealing with now.

Meanwhile pretending Corbyn can just knock out the DUP and press the Stop Brexit button without letting the Tories back in is delusional as well. It's all so fucked.

Thread's on fire today, but as usual whenever it is the more insoluble this clusterfuck seems and the we're all gonna die lol quotient goes through the roof.

the people I know pushing a second vote are as far from Lib Dem / New Labour as you can get - it's because of the effect of this on the poor and disadvantaged (and the fact that Brexit is sucking up all of the attention in the room from how they're already getting fucked) that they're in favour of this.

This goes for me and a lot of people I know too - but the mainstream representation of the second referendum people are the people we’re talking about. That’s why I’m so derisive of FBPE people, they’re clueless and haven’t advanced a single idea about winning hearts and minds and will fuck us all with their blithe ignorance.

If you're reading this then it's very possibly a nice day outside - go outside (advice very much to myself foremost)

I'm actually reading it outside and it's pissing it down.

Worst of both worlds.

It is a very good day outside here so in SE London - might go for a walk and come back with a more nuanced understanding of FBPE lot.

One more:

https://www.vice.com/amp/en_uk/article/wj3kvb/peter-mandelson-calls-for-a-peoples-vote-while-telling-potential-clients-brexit-cant-be-stopped

Peter Mandelson, one of the founder-directors of the main campaigns to stop Brexit, also runs a company offering international corporations advice about how to deal with the approaching inevitability of Brexit.

i am in hastings where every other bloke looks like someone from an early 70s blues-prog band that got back together for one final tour except the bass player was murdered in a quirky way (involving electricity) and now wycliffe is teaming up with shoestring to investigate

i have not mentioned brexit to anyone in case there's another murder

I was just at a record shop in-store gig (in Hastings) and someone made a Brexit joke and nobody booed fwiw

I would avoid mentioning it anywhere near the harbour though

thanks gyac for summing up what i thought way more succinctly than i'm capable of

it's lovely outside, if i didn't have a crushing hangover i wd've really enjoyed it

Thankful for the relative sanity and perspective on display ITT. Twitter is indeed *yikes*. I've been outside.

"[they] will fuck us all with their blithe ignorance"

probably potential for a new thread title in there, or even if not good work anyway.

This is what ideologues and gurus do. They don’t really care about the people they claim to champion, they care about their ideology, because within that lies the cowardly definition of their identity & the adulation that that tempers the self doubt. https://t.co/q0ZIdairtB

— Eddie Marsan (@eddiemarsan) December 22, 2018

seagulls .. trawlers etc..

there's no doubt corbyn is a eurosceptic but if the path to downing street required him to soften that stance, he'd do so in a hot minute. marsan is such a little slug

I'd be troubled if I liked him as an actor, but I think just about everything he's in is a pile of steaming.

I can't believe a highly paid television actor thinks the EU is more important than economic reform

there is another luvvie melt who sometimes posts on a htafc board I sometimes read. The cut of his jib is much the same kind of claptrap as Marsan. But the difference is he's a bit more intelligent and takes the time to post about things that are often much more interesting than how bad Corbyn is once in a while.

I didn't realise that recent Stupidgate vid was actually the SECOND time Corbz has said pantomine. It's almost like Barry Chuckle died twice.

Police admit reporting disabled anti-fracking protesters to DWP – to have their benefits cancelled? https://t.co/XcxvoXPFCC

— Haiku Ninja (@Haikuninjatoday) December 24, 2018

basically the Lancs pigs are scum of the earth. It is alleged they have been physically targeting disabled fracking protesters and reporting them to the DWP, because they aren't allowed to get disability benefits and protest apparently.

DWP practices mean anyone investigated for fraud has their benefits stopped before any guilt or innocence is proved. This has prompted some to say that malicious prompting of disabled people for benefit fraud – without evidence – should be considered a hate crime

I am not signing off twitter for Christmas. There is Brexit to be stopped

— Andrew Adonis (@Andrew_Adonis) December 23, 2018

Thank you Andrew. I look forward to waking up on Christmas morning and reading The Tweet that Stopped Brexit.

— Simon Hedges (@Orwell_Fan) December 23, 2018

God bless us everyone.

lool Hedges is too good sometimes.